[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

[glen]

I feel like y'all have lost an important part of the conversation, stemming from your invocation of multi-modal interaction. Whether we start with only 5 modes (see, smell, taste, hear, feel) or a very high dimensional one (including all the various signals across the various membranes (humidity, heat, absorption of chemicals through the skin, intake of exobiotics, etc.) each dimension can support a derivation (a meta-*: meta-sight, meta-taste, etc.) in a "linear" way. And each dimension can be fused in an n-ary function (f(taste,smell), g(sight,feel), h(hear, see), i(taste, smell, feel), etc.).

Oversimplifying this into aware versus meta-aware is going to lead you down a primrose path. Even if you admit the combinatorial explosion of multi-modal derivation and re-derivation of higher and higher order functions, you still have to include the fact that the functions operate at various rates of interaction with each other and the environment. And that the "environment" of each function is co-constructed by all the other functions, as well as the world outside the organism.

And even if you admit that, these orders may not complete. The ordering may be partial, where for example an Operator, O, might operate over a zeroth order signal from the environment combined with a 2nd order derivation. E.g.

O{taste, f(taste), g(f²(taste))), where f²() is something like f() applied twice either in time (like a wine that changes as you swish it in your mouth) or space (like a food that has chemicals inducing both salty and sweet).


On 7/5/24 12:18, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant in a dialogue from Plato...
> 
> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than the perception of oneself?
> 
> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
> 
> 
> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a strange attractor.
> 
> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
> 
> 
> -J.
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
> 
> ,
> 
> Great!  Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving."   So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, /per explorandum/ ? Let's call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".   Allowing this definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware.  Lets define meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness.  Now, am I correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am?  And further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
> 
> Nick
> 
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net <mailto:jofr at cas-group.net>> wrote:
> 
>     I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>     https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ <https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/>
> 
>     -J.
> 
> 
>     -------- Original message --------
>     From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>>
>     Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
>     To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>     Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
> 
>     Jochen,
> 
>     /I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat is conscious.  If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise.  I had a facinnationg conversation with  GBT about  whether he was conscious and he denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for consciousness.
>     /
>     /
>     /
>     /So.  Is your cat  connscious?
>     /
>     /
>     /
>     /Nick
>     /


-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ