[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Sun Jul 7 23:01:30 EDT 2024

ID

f language is defined as that form of communication that only humans have,
then, of course, we are home free.

N

On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 8:52 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> why do you assume cats, dogs, and horses lack language? Elephants call
> each other by name, octopi definitely appear to communicate symbolically
> (language), whales and dolphins seem to have "language" and use it to
> communicate. Did proto-humans lack language because the means of
> communication were gestures, paintings, song and not dictionary words
> grammatically parsed? cats dogs and horses definitely 'communicate' using
> sound, body language scent (their pee smells quite different when they are
> conveying "I was here" and "this is mine."
>
> davew
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, at 6:28 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>
> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they
> lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now.
> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past
> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of
> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is the
> mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals
> lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails do not count as
> language.
>
> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body
> which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are
> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language.
> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness.
>
> -J.
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and
> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the
> conversation has the same quality.  I apologize for that.  my students
> found it truly distressing.
>
> So, if you will indulge me, why don't  you think your cat has
> meta=awareness?   Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have
> had that leads you to think that.   It would be kind of odd if it she
> didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from
> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that".  (e.g., scent marking?)
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own
> awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans
> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant
> in a dialogue from Plato...
>
> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the
> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to
> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive
> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than
> the perception of oneself?
>
> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>
>
> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information
> feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a
> strange attractor.
>
> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
> ,
>
> Great!  Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving."   So,
> can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's call
> acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".   Allowing this definition, we
> certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware.  Lets define meta-awareness
> as acting i respect to one's own awareness.  Now, am I correct in assuming
> that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that
> the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am?  And further that you
> think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>
> Nick
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its
> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and
> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of
> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language
> which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>
> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>
> -J.
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
> Jochen,
>
> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat
> is conscious.  If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise.  I had a
> facinnationg conversation with  GBT about  whether he was conscious and he
> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for
> consciousness. *
>
> *So.  Is your cat  connscious?*
>
> *Nick*
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school,
> from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of
> languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the
> same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all
> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding
> of language and consciousness...
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>
> -J.
>
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