[FRIAM] Is consciousness a mystery? (used to be "mystery...deeper".T

[Frank Wimberly]

Glen,

This is a test to illustrate somethiing about Gmail to Nick.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 4:37 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347215003085
>
>
>
> On July 9, 2024 2:04:29 PM PDT, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>> Maybe I should not be replying, as I do believe my dogs (and your cat if
>> you have one) are conscious.
>>
>> I have not experienced a Vulcan Mind-Meld with either of my dogs, so I
>> cannot say with certainty they are conscious—I must infer it from
>> observations:
>> 1- interactions with other dogs would seem to indicate they "remember"
>> past interactions and do not require the same butt-sniffing protocol with
>> dogs they have met at the park frequently. Also they seem to remember who
>> plays with who and who doesn't. "That ball is not mine, this one is."
>> 2-they modify their behavior depending on the tenor, sharpness, and
>> volume of barks, ear positions, tail wagging differences, by the other
>> dogs; e.g., "that's enough."
>> 3-They do not communicate to me in English, but seem to accept
>> communication from me in that language—not trained responses to commands,
>> but "listening to conversations" between myself and Mary and reacting to
>> words (e.g., dog park) that are exchanged in those conversations. Mary and
>> I are totally sedentary and speaking in conversational tone, so pretty sure
>> there we are not sending 'signals' akin to training words, training tone of
>> voice.
>> 4-they seem to remember trauma, (one of our dogs spent three days with
>> dead owner before anyone knew the owner was deceased and will bite if
>> anyone tries to forcefully remove him from my (current bonded owner)
>> presence.
>> 5-seek "psychological comfort" by crawling into my bed and sleeping on my
>> shoulder when the thunderstorm comes.
>>
>> *All of these are grounded in anthropomorphism—long considered a deadly
>> error by ethologists.* (Some contemporary ethologists are exploring
>> accepting and leveraging this "error" to extend our understanding of animal
>> behavior.)
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, at 2:54 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>
>> While I find all the  ancillary considerations raised on the original
>> thread extremely interesting,  I would like to reopen the discussion of
>> Conscious as a Mystery and ask that those that join it stay close to the
>> question of what consciousness is and how we know it when we see it.  Baby
>> Steps.
>>
>> Where were we?   I think I was asking Jochen, and perhaps Peitr and
>> anybody else who thought that animals were not conscious (i.e., not aware
>> of their own awareness)  what basis they had in experience for thinking
>> that..  One offering for such an experience is the absence of language in
>> animals.  Because my cat cannot  describe his experience in words, he
>> cannot be  conscious.  This requires the following syllogism:
>>
>> Nothing that does not employ a language (or two?) is conscious.
>> Animals (with ;the possible exception of signing apes) do not employ
>> languages.
>> Ergo, Animals are not conscious.
>>
>> But I was trying to find out the basis for the first premise.  How do we
>> know that there are no non-linguistic beings that are not conscious.  I
>> hope we could rule out the answer,"because they are non-linguistic",  both
>> in its strictly  tautological or merely circular form.
>>
>> There is a closely related syllogism which we also need to explore:
>>
>> All language using beings are conscious.
>> George Peter Tremblay IV is a language-using being.
>> George Peter Tremblay IV is conscious.
>>
>> Both are valid syllogisms.  But where do the premises come from.
>>
>> Nick
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-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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