[FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance
Gary Schiltz
gary at naturesvisualarts.com
Wed Jul 17 22:41:09 EDT 2024
If your friend would like more info I’d be glad to chat. We have no kids so
that made it easier. Most of my relatives are Trumpies, so I don’t miss the
holidays with them :-)
On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 8:32 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
> > Steve - I assume your question of "how many 'political refugees' can
> > you take in there" is rhetorical. Although the incredibly bureaucratic
> > system here makes actually getting a long-term visa a bit of a pain in
> > practice, it is quite straightforward if one has the resources (proven
> > income from retirement or a moderate sum of money to invest).
> > the monthly income requirement is under $1000 and the investment
> > necessary (through a bank CD that yields probably about 7%) is around
> > $40K. That's the easy part.
> yes, rhetorical for the most part... I'm much more likely to take the
> bonhoffer or schindler options...
> >
> > Aside from it being very difficult to live here without at least a
> > rudimentary fluency in Spanish, the difficult part for many naive
> > "political refugees" is the culture shock of living in a country with
> > very different assumptions.
> I was prepared to flee America at 18 to avoid the *implications of* the
> draft... I wasn't fluent in Spanish, but I could get by... the border
> was about 1 mile from my parents house and in those days it was easy to
> drive across the border (southerly) without even showing a driver's
> license. The MX banks were riding high on US $$ invested (as Pesos)
> because their interest rates were higher than the US rates
> (significantly?) but that was the few years before the huge (10:1?)
> devaluation that happened just after that period. There were surely some
> limits on importing cash, but my $3k savings at the time probably wasn't
> over those limits but would have gone a long way as pesos, even after
> devaluation. I turned 18 (and skipped the desertions since selective
> service quit requiring registration months before I turned 18). I felt
> fairly comfortable with MX assumptions as experienced on the border...
> having many friends with grandparents and a few tias/tios living in MX
> and visiting their families from time to time. Maybe harder/different
> deeper in MX, but before the type of cartel activity of today...
> > Example one: there are no "good samaritan"
> > laws to protect drivers. If you are involved in a traffic accident
> > that results in injuries, you automatically are taken to "traffic
> > jail" until you can appear before a judge to determine if you have
> > committed an offense.
> I've a young (now 45?) friend who went to Africa to deliver/install used
> computer equipment they scavenged/repaired in Portland OR... he came and
> went w/o incident but the *next* volunteer, driving the organizations
> old van hit someone. He was literally stoned to death on the spot by
> the village. Sobered my friend, but he went back anyway, let a local
> drive the van.
> > These jails are apparently not so bad (not
> > really prisons, but more like barracks where you can't leave), but
> > still, they are quite an inconvenience. This can even happen if you
> > weren't involved in the accident, other than stopping to see if
> > someone along the road appears to be injured and waiting for an
> > ambulance to arrive. If you look like you have money, the person may
> > well lie to extort money from you. So the conventional wisdom here is
> > don't stop to help someone, and if you are involved in a traffic
> > accident, it is best to flee.
> There were stories like this of MX federal (federales)police in my day...
> >
> > Example two: the police are generally pretty corrupt. Though not
> > common in the part of the country where I live, in other provinces
> > nearer the coast, there are routine traffic stops to check that your
> > papers are in order. They often will tell you to just pull over to the
> > side of the road and wait for them to determine what to do with you.
> > In reality, they're waiting for you to come to a "gentleman's
> > agreement" to expedite your permission to go on your way. That
> > agreement usually involves "paying the fine right here" for $20 or
> > more.
> Yeh, like that...
> > Example three: continuing with the police corruption (or incompetence)
> > theme, conventional wisdom says that if you're a victim of a crime
> > (robbery, assault), contacting the police is useless. The onus is on
> > you to go to the police station and file a police report, and it seems
> > to require that you name someone as the robber/assaulter. So much
> > crime goes unreported.
> I remember when you reported the home invasion (on US Thanksgiving day?)
> a decade ago... didn't sound fun at all (the intrusion nor the aftermath).
> >
> > I've painted a pretty bleak picture, but in practice, you just have to
> > "learn the ropes". I suspect that many Latin American countries are
> > similar. But despite these warts, it is a beautiful land and the
> > people are generally extremely friendly (if not always honest).
> The two people/couples I know making their way in Panama have a similar
> experience, but maybe a little more "backed up" by the US
> presence/history/relationship there.... but only a little.
> > Having
> > lived here now for 16 years, I have come to accept these problems and
> > would never move back to the USA for a couple of reasons: first, I can
> > live, on my fixed income, a middle class lifestyle, whereas in the USA
> > I would be in poverty; and second, even though there are strong
> > political differences among people here, people of opposing views can
> > discuss those views without getting so bent out of shape, and
> > certainly don't reach the level of hatred as the right and left have
> > for each other in the USA. The society is "muy tranquilo" (very calm)
> > and the unofficial motto seems to be "todo bien" (everything is okay).
>
> This is really good to hear. My other experiences with US expats tend
> to have them a little less grounded in theri choices. Typically slightly
> spoiled professional class folks who seek something a notch above
> "middle class" retirements... some more righteous than others... some
> semi-grounded in the local culture, others surfing on their privilege.
> They also report (Oaxaca, Puerto Escondido) area "tranquilo" and "todo
> bien" as the general vibe but I've always suspected it had something to
> do with "wealthy" Americans/Europeans... One has applied for permanent
> resident status, I suspect based on an investment (sold a house here for
> easy .5M a few years ago, probably limited retirement income but
> probably over $1k/mo)...
>
> The financial "buy in" you reference sounds lower threshold than MX or
> Panama, which I think might be order twice that? I'm personally not
> seeking that but my near-homeless friend might be more well served by my
> providing a $40k investment than anything I could do to help protect her
> here if things went too sideways. She was once (in her 20s) married to a
> Spaniard, living in Spain... I suspect her Spanish would come back. I
> think she would thrive in a "tranquilo" culture and hasn't driven much
> if at all for decades. Her siblings, not so much... so maybe not
>
> This is one of the best parts of FriAM IMO, the broad multi-cultural
> embedding in spite of a somewhat white-male-techno-professional
> substrate. Thanks for the update...
>
> Follow up question... do you have (adult) children, and how does all
> this settle with/for them?
>
> - Steve
>
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 5:26 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
> >> As things slide off toward more and more (probability of and depth of)
> authoriatarian intolerance I find myself trying to reign my self back in to
> the question of what to do with my offense and real concern for the nation
> (and world): I do I prepare to be a Schindler or a Bonhoffer?
> >>
> >> Too many of my (more Lefty) acquaintances are ideating exhaustively
> about "leaving the country" while I am trying to guess who more likely to
> suffer acutely if Project 2025 and it's promulgators become the standard
> than I (elderish professional class white male with a scruffy beard,
> farmer's tan and a few callouses who is most comfortable wearing jeans and
> workboots, who owns a pickup truck).
> >>
> >> We have one friend who has been homeless in her life, has significant
> emotional disabilities but has had her life on track for over 10 years now,
> but only with significant "gub'mnt assistance". Two of her three siblings
> are in even worse shape, living much closer to the edge financially and
> mentally... she moved from here to be close to them and help as she could 5
> or 6 years ago. She is baldfaced scared that her siblings and likely
> herself will end up on the streets (again) in a heartbeat and possibly
> driven to worse things in the process. I think *we* could help her enough
> that she could keep helping her siblings avoid a complete failure to
> thrive... so that is one thing.
> >> Another is a friend who has finally obtained permanent resident status
> after decades of bouncing between temporary work visas and returning to the
> highlands of MX, all the time working as hard as he could, birthing and
> raising two children (who are American Citizens by birth, aka "anchor
> babies") and now some grandchildren. He doesn't openly worry or grouse,
> but I could feel the relief when his permanent residence status (and that
> of his wife in a similar time frame) came through. While I think he is on
> the "safe" side of immigration rules being turned inside out, I'm sure he
> is worried about it as well as whether the intolerant elements of our
> community might feel (more) liberated in directing their "performative
> cruelty" in his family's direction. Helping him could come in many forms,
> not sure what they are quite yet.
> >> I'm sure there are others... others I won't think of until I sit with
> it for a while?
> >>
> >> Gary, how many "political refugees" can you take in there in Ecuador?
> I doubt my canoe can traverse the coast around the Darien Gap, but it
> might be worth a try... (probably trade it on the south-end for something
> of value or at least some good intel on how to get to your place?) or
> just stay here and channel Schindler and Bonhoffer?
> >>
> >> - Steve
> >>
> >> On 7/17/24 3:45 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, as a theoretical matter, it's hard to say what would happen if
> >> Biden were to try to knock off Trump. I can't in my wildest dreams
> >> imagine that killing a political opponent would be considered to be an
> >> official act of the president. As a practical matter? No chance he
> >> would do more than fantasize about it, because I believe he is an
> >> honorable man (for a politician) who cares about his legacy. What a
> >> legacy that would be. But ignoring all that, if he *did* do it, just
> >> remember which side (left or right) has the guns. And boy oh boy do
> >> they have guns. It would at a minimum result in an armed, violent
> >> insurrection, and I even wonder if the military would support him or
> >> the insurrectionists. I certainly consider this type of action to be
> >> treasonous.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:04 PM Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Don't want to drag this out forever, but ... The immunity decision is
> extraordinarily dangerous precisely because it allows a President to break
> the law and to ignore traditional safeguards and then to claim immunity if
> charges are brought against him.
> >>
> >> -- Russ Abbott
> >> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> >> California State University, Los Angeles
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:19 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, OK. It seems pretty clear that there are laws protecting citizens
> (that don't protect non-citizens). Situations like arresting a citizen and
> holding them for a very long time before charging them are the in-between
> wiggle room. And we have things like opening investigations into them, etc.
> And it would be pretty easy to "disappear" a nobody like me. I think it's
> not so easy to disappear Trump. Anyway, there are some pretty hard
> constraints like due process, posse comitatus, and such. The only way the
> President could make an assassination of a citizen plausible is to deem
> them an enemy of the state, revoke their citizenship, present some flimsy
> justification for that revocation, etc. And even then, as long as they're
> on US soil, (again, to be legitimate) you'd want to use the ATF, FBI, ICE,
> or something, not the Navy or CIA.
> >>
> >> IDK. This scenario just feels like spy novel fantasy to me. It was a
> good quip in the SCOTUS hearing. But there are too many holes in the
> mechanics to do it with the appearance of legitimacy. (This says nothing of
> doing it Nixon- or Hoover- style, of course.)
> >>
> >> I am kinda on pins and needles to see what Chutkan makes of some of
> this, though.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7/16/24 19:34, Russ Abbott wrote:
> >>
> >> I think it's an official act if it involves the use of powers
> designated by the Constitution as Presidential. As I understand the SCOTUS
> ruling, the motivation for that use is not relevant. That's one of the
> things that's so terrible about the immunity decision. Seal Team 6 and all
> that.
> >>
> >> -- Russ
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 11:17 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> It's pretty hard for me to see how that would stand up in court.
> If assassination of citizens, much less a fully cleared and daily
> int-briefed President-elect, is ultimately ruled an "official" action,
> we've already lost the Republic and committing the actual deed would be
> futile. No need to worry about losing the Republic if the Republic is
> already lost.
> >>
> >> On 7/16/24 10:47, Russ Abbott wrote:
> >> > Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins,
> Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him
> assassinated?
> >> >
> >> > -- Russ
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com
> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to
> think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not
> involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope
> for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the
> convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the
> hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns
> furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets
> through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the hospital with
> some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's
> condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and becomes
> America's Grandpa.
> >> >
> >> > Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D
> >> >
> >> > On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:
> >> > > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those
> of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time.
> >> > > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> > >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and
> indirectly.
> >> > >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:
> >> > >>> [Scott's] Prayer
> >> > >>> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <
> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117> <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <
> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe
> intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems
> extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism
> displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/> <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>>). This faith that "going
> high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to
> "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a
> thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's
> dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to
> changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?
> >> > >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> >>
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