[FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance
Russ Abbott
russ.abbott at gmail.com
Thu Jul 18 10:29:39 EDT 2024
Agree. The danger is that someone like Trump can make all sorts of actions
"official" by e.g. ordering a federal agency to carry it out. Even if the
action violates a law, that doesn't prevent it from being official. (That's
my understanding and concern.)
-- Russ
On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 2:30 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not really. What's happened is the law has now been refined/redefined to
> require actions be categorized as official and unofficial. So actions that
> are deemed official are not against the law. Actions that are unofficial
> are, then, subject to traditional laws. It remains to be tried/ruled
> whether a particular assassination was official/legal or not. If Biden
> orders Trumps assassination and it is deemed unofficial, then he'll be
> tried for it. If it's deemed official, then it was legal.
>
> On 7/17/24 14:03, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > Don't want to drag this out forever, but ... The immunity decision is
> extraordinarily dangerous precisely because it allows a President to break
> the law and to ignore traditional safeguards and then to claim immunity if
> charges are brought against him.
> > _
> > _
> > __-- Russ Abbott
> > Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> > California State University, Los Angeles
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:19 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Well, OK. It seems pretty clear that there are laws protecting
> citizens (that don't protect non-citizens). Situations like arresting a
> citizen and holding them for a very long time before charging them are the
> in-between wiggle room. And we have things like opening investigations into
> them, etc. And it would be pretty easy to "disappear" a nobody like me. I
> think it's not so easy to disappear Trump. Anyway, there are some pretty
> hard constraints like due process, posse comitatus, and such. The only way
> the President could make an assassination of a citizen plausible is to deem
> them an enemy of the state, revoke their citizenship, present some flimsy
> justification for that revocation, etc. And even then, as long as they're
> on US soil, (again, to be legitimate) you'd want to use the ATF, FBI, ICE,
> or something, not the Navy or CIA.
> >
> > IDK. This scenario just feels like spy novel fantasy to me. It was a
> good quip in the SCOTUS hearing. But there are too many holes in the
> mechanics to do it with the appearance of legitimacy. (This says nothing of
> doing it Nixon- or Hoover- style, of course.)
> >
> > I am kinda on pins and needles to see what Chutkan makes of some of
> this, though.
> >
> >
> > On 7/16/24 19:34, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > > I think it's an official act if it involves the use of powers
> designated by the Constitution as Presidential. As I understand the SCOTUS
> ruling, the motivation for that use is not relevant. That's one of the
> things that's so terrible about the immunity decision. Seal Team 6 and all
> that.
> > >
> > > -- Russ
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 11:17 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com
> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > It's pretty hard for me to see how that would stand up in
> court. If assassination of citizens, much less a fully cleared and daily
> int-briefed President-elect, is ultimately ruled an "official" action,
> we've already lost the Republic and committing the actual deed would be
> futile. No need to worry about losing the Republic if the Republic is
> already lost.
> > >
> > > On 7/16/24 10:47, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > > > Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump
> wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have
> him assassinated?
> > > >
> > > > -- Russ
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com
> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com>> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's
> another to think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex
> strategy not involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still
> hold out hope for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the
> nominee. After the convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has
> gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily
> and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden
> recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to
> the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over
> again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers
> and becomes America's Grandpa.
> > > >
> > > > Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D
> > > >
> > > > On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > > > > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to
> those of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next
> time.
> > > > > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > > > >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and
> indirectly.
> > > > >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:
> > > > >>> [Scott's] Prayer
> > > > >>> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <
> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117> <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <
> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>> <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <
> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117> <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <
> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe
> intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems
> extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism
> displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/> <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>> <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/> <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <
> https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>>>). This faith that "going
> high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to
> "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a
> thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's
> dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to
> changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too
> > low-brow?
> > > > >>>
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: 5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20240718/908e6df5/attachment.html>
More information about the Friam
mailing list