[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

Fri Jul 19 21:27:19 EDT 2024

Hi  David,

My ears are still ringing with this:
*When we do eventually turn to "self- " I have many anecdotes, but fear
they will be deemed "irrelevant" or "metaphysical" or idiosyncratic (Holy
Self???) and excluded; making consensus of any kind impossible.*

Every experience references a place-from-which.  To that extent, an
experience is necessarily  idiosyncratic.    If you have had an experience
with a dragon that you think bears on whether dragons are conscious or
not,  I want to hear it.

Nick

On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 5:35 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks, Dave,
> I tried to set two ground rules, here:  One is simply that  we try to find
> ways to a common understanding.      I recognize that the best way to get
> there might be to go into battle together, or drink a lot whiskey together,
> or drop acid together, but my puritan upbringing forbids those methods. So,
> the second is that we do it by sharing concrete experiences, rather than
> airy references to philosophers or links to voluminous publications, or, in
> my case, vast insertions of my published works. .
>
> So, if you have a better procedure for meeting those rules  lets try them.
>
> Nick
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 1:15 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> apologize for immediate last post being on this thread - it is indeed
>> veering into metaphysics (oh boy fun).
>>
>>
>> However, what was said, was indeed anecdotes about my 'experiences'
>> vis-a-vis consciousness. Are such impermissible in this conversation? If
>> Dr. Lilly were to join us share anecdotes about dolphin consciousness or,
>> heaven forbid, about dropping acid with the dolphins, would they be useful
>> for our conversation?
>>
>> I am totally sympathetic with the program here, (and do not see it as a
>> game, zero-sum or otherwise) but often feel as if I am constrained by
>> invisible rules. May I share stories only about cats, Dusty, and Jackson?
>> Perhaps the answer is implicit in your baby-steps dictum: yes, for now,
>> with anecdotes about dragons and unicorns deferred until we have obtained
>> some degree of consensus as to domestic mammals?
>>
>> When we do eventually turn to "self-consciousness" I have many anecdotes,
>> but fear they will be deemed "irrelevant" or "metaphysical" or
>> idiosyncratic (Holy Self???) and excluded; making consensus of any kind
>> impossible.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 11:48 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>
>> Hi, everybody.  We are veering into meta again.  Ugh.
>>
>> Where Nick is trying to get is a method for him and David and Jochen to
>> converse productively about consciousness.  A productive conversation, for
>> Nick, is one that produces agreement, at least agreement on the terms of
>> disagreement.  Anecdotes come in because I am beginning to think that
>> anecdotes lie at the core of how we understand ourselves and our worlds.
>> Every anecdote is a fable with a moral, implicit or explicit.   I tell an
>> anecdote which to me means the cat is conscious; if the cat is conscious,
>> than other anecdotes must be relevant.  You chime in with your anecdotes.
>> We are building a consensus for what it means for a cat to be conscious.
>> With that agreement in hand we now turn to "self-conscious".
>>
>> Of course, lurking behind all of this is the question of whether
>> agreement is desirable or whether we all prefer our Holy Individuality.  I
>> hear Dave saying, "I am happy to play your agreement game, but in the end I
>> prefer my Holy Individuality."   But in the end, I don't think there is
>> anyway to play "my" game as a zero-sum game, without any hankering for a
>> common outcome.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 11:32 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will
>> not get to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated
>> starting point of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong.
>>
>> Nick: *"For me;  the heartland of self-consciousness would be an
>> awareness on the part of an agent, that  A is one of those  that others
>> are.  I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an
>> experience."*
>>
>> I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about
>> self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the conclusion
>> that, "I" am NOT *"one of those that others are." (obviously there is
>> some marginal overlap)*
>>
>> Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to
>> publicly reveal about them*S*elves.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote:
>> > It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual
>> > interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to
>> > self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat
>> > clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass
>> > burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute
>> > before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order
>> > consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order
>> > consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he
>> > decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink
>> > out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness
>> > for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of
>> > interoception.
>> >
>> > In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only
>> > indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a
>> > full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid
>> > individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable
>> > of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies
>> > explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius.
>> >
>> > [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual
>> > interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet
>> > confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe
>> > for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the
>> > way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across
>> > simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about
>> > this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which
>> > means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can.
>> >
>> > [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto
>> > what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in
>> > anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay
>> > inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic
>> > weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or
>> > those outside the house.
>> >
>> > On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>> >> All,
>> >>
>> >> I want to move things along here, but  not sure movement would be.
>> Our shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals
>> we are in interaction with are conscious.
>> >>
>> >> Jochen seemed to disagree.  So Jochen, and you all, what should we do
>> about that?   I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to
>> resolve it.    Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
>> >>
>> >> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness.  For me;  the
>> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an
>> agent, that  A is one of those  that others are.  I am trying to think what
>> sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience.
>> >
>> > --
>> > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>> >
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>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
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>
>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
>

-- 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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