[FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

[Nicholas Thompson]

Jochen,

No bending here.  This IS the thread.

I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an
animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you
stood on that.

 I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of
animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two
propositions are true.

*Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).*

And now we are working on these two:

*Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).*

I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some noman's
land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version of it
into this thread.  I will post it asap.  Meantime, I am  looking for
experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that
animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious.   People have been
enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for.  Whatever
else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something
that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your
believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is
references lectures and tomes.  Frankly, I  would prefer to have a cat
video.

Nick


On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to me
> like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.
>
> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their
> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when
> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and
> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer
> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.
>
> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show
> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but
> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels
> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a
> place before it gets interesting.
>
>
> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)
>
>
> J.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>,
> Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>
> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that I
> am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.
>
> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and
> Glen's on the other,  but I have to go shopping.   I am still hoping to
> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses,
> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not  only responding to the
> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world
> around them.
>
> Back to this later when stocked up
>
> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork
> it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that
> person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.
>
> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi.
>
> Nick
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-- 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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