[FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

Wed Jul 24 15:24:31 EDT 2024

Hi, Frank,

I think that anything that can speak intelligibly of a shared world is
conscious.So the dog is conscious, if it can speak, if only to itself.
It's hard for me to imagine that a dog that cannot speak aloud can speak to
itself, but let that go. If you take the bubble serious, the  sentiment is
indeed very layered. But if my dog did that with me, I would take it as,
"so you got me in the car; so now what" or, more simply, " Are we there
yet?"
 Nick

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 3:03 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Did this ever get published here?  I sent it but never saw it.
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/XsJSpoMaTQOqr0Ll0ne3WQ.O60UcGgc4kfT_gbXPz5eBV
>
> It's a cartoon but is it funny, relatable, or interesting?  Note that the
> dog is concerned that its owner may be concerned about where they are
> going.  It reassures the owner, in its own mind, that being with him is
> what's important to it.  Imaginary though it is that's a pretty advanced
> consciousness.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024, 12:16 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jochen,
>>
>> No bending here.  This IS the thread.
>>
>> I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an
>> animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you
>> stood on that.
>>
>>  I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of
>> animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two
>> propositions are true.
>>
>> *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).*
>>
>> And now we are working on these two:
>>
>> *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).*
>>
>> I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some
>> noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version
>> of it into this thread.  I will post it asap.  Meantime, I am  looking for
>> experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that
>> animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious.   People have been
>> enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for.  Whatever
>> else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something
>> that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your
>> believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is
>> references lectures and tomes.  Frankly, I  would prefer to have a cat
>> video.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Nick,
>>>
>>> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to
>>> me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.
>>>
>>> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their
>>> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when
>>> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and
>>> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer
>>> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.
>>>
>>> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show
>>> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but
>>> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels
>>> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a
>>> place before it gets interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>>
>>> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that
>>> I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.
>>>
>>> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and
>>> Glen's on the other,  but I have to go shopping.   I am still hoping to
>>> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses,
>>> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not  only responding to the
>>> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world
>>> around them.
>>>
>>> Back to this later when stocked up
>>>
>>> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't
>>> fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to
>>> that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.
>>>
>>> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi.
>>>
>>> Nick
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
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-- 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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