[FRIAM] meeting 7/26

Thu Jul 25 21:49:12 EDT 2024

Sure.  FRIAM is a year around meeting.

On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 5:21 PM Jacques Mettes <jacmettes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> I've been away/busy and have lost track of the schedule. Are we still
> meeting in person over the summer?
> Thanks,
> Jacques
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:15 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico.  Chico was
>> docile and obedient when we were out and about but when we were approaching
>> "home" and he could see the barn where the food was he would start to
>> gallop and would go through the entrance without regard to its being too
>> low for a rider to fit.  If I hadn't jumped off I'd have been hurt. I never
>> felt that he loved me.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 4:00 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had when I
>>> was young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither cats nor
>>> horses love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the couch it is
>>> most likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to be around
>>> you, it is rather because it is a nocturnal predator tired from hunting
>>> birds and mice at night, which they occasionally proudly present to their
>>> human owners.
>>>
>>> Horses love only two things: being near the herd and eating green grass,
>>> ideally both at the same time. And if they go in heat they want to mate,
>>> which happens every 21 days in female horses. They recognize their owners
>>> after a few months, and start to trust them, but if you come to their
>>> paddock and they come to you if is not because they love you but because
>>> they love the carrots and apples that you likely have for them. Similarly
>>> if you bring them back after the ride or the training they do not turn
>>> around or say goodbye. It feels like almost autistic behavior sometimes
>>> because they lack the social habits we usually have.
>>>
>>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants
>>>
>>> Therefore I would say based on my limited experience with cats and
>>> horses that humans love their animals, yes, but animals do not love them
>>> back in the same way. To me it feels more like they tolerate us as friends
>>> for a limited time: friends who are useful because they provide food and
>>> shelter.
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>> Date: 7/24/24 10:41 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>>
>>> But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question,
>>> right?
>>>
>>> n
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It
>>>> depends how you define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans.
>>>> No matter how much your dog or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone,
>>>> there's a decent chance your pet will eat you"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die
>>>>
>>>> But I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental
>>>> difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and
>>>> pain, happiness, and misery"
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -J.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>>>
>>>> Jochen,
>>>>
>>>> No bending here.  This IS the thread.
>>>>
>>>> I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an
>>>> animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you
>>>> stood on that.
>>>>
>>>>  I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of
>>>> animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two
>>>> propositions are true.
>>>>
>>>> *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).*
>>>>
>>>> And now we are working on these two:
>>>>
>>>> *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).*
>>>>
>>>> I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some
>>>> noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version
>>>> of it into this thread.  I will post it asap.  Meantime, I am  looking for
>>>> experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that
>>>> animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious.   People have been
>>>> enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for.  Whatever
>>>> else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something
>>>> that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your
>>>> believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is
>>>> references lectures and tomes.  Frankly, I  would prefer to have a cat
>>>> video.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nick,
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to
>>>>> me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.
>>>>>
>>>>> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their
>>>>> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when
>>>>> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and
>>>>> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer
>>>>> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show
>>>>> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but
>>>>> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels
>>>>> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a
>>>>> place before it gets interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> J.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>>> friam at redfish.com>, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>>>>
>>>>> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two
>>>>> that I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them
>>>>> straight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and
>>>>> Glen's on the other,  but I have to go shopping.   I am still hoping to
>>>>> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses,
>>>>> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not  only responding to the
>>>>> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world
>>>>> around them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back to this later when stocked up
>>>>>
>>>>> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't
>>>>> fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to
>>>>> that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.
>>>>>
>>>>> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>> Clark University
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
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> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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