[FRIAM] Writing and Civilization and AI, oh my!

[Gary Schiltz]

There were certainly indigenous peoples who were quite civilized, with
defended borders, and even functioning inter-tribal treaties, and to
my understanding, survived long periods of time with no written
language. It does, however, seem to me that they couldn't have
developed complex mathematical or industrial processes without written
language. Still, I would consider them to be civilizations.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 11:03 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>   Moving this to another thread.
>
> A written language was not necessary for, not the generative cause for urban civilizations. Written languages existed before the "great civilizations" arose, but only a few individuals were fluent in their use. This remained true for a long time after those civilizations arose. Plato, in the midst of a "great civilization," bemoaned the 'invention' and use of written language. From Phaedrus:
>
> "And so it is that you by reason of your tender regard for the writing that is your offspring have declared the very opposite of its true effect. If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks.
>
>     What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only the semblance of wisdom, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much while for the most part they know nothing. And as men filled not with wisdom but with the conceit of wisdom they will be a burden to their fellows.
>
> You know, Phaedrus, that is the strange thing about writing, which makes it truly correspond to painting. The painter’s products stand before us as though they were alive. But if you question them, they maintain a most majestic silence. It is the same with written words. They seem to talk to you as though they were intelligent, but if you ask them anything about what they say from a desire to be instructed they go on telling just the same thing forever."
>
> Homer also was against the adoption of writing.
>
> IM(not so)HO, Plato was right, reliance on and glorification of written language has harmed humanity. From a very different perspective, Ian McGilchrist (The Master and His Emissary, The Matter With Things, volume one and two) written language and math, have brought about a "left-brain dominance" in how humans think and interact with the world—to our (humanity) great detriment.
>
> Particularly galling to me is the deprecation and dismissal of any human knowledge, wisdom, experience ... that cannot be reduced to mere words and abstract symbols. The epitome of this is the conceit that AI—which is nothing more than the algorithmic manipulation of abstract meaningless tokens is somehow "equivalent" to human intelligence.
>
> davew
>
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/