[FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree

[glen]

Well, it's not really relaying what it has read ... or, at least, there's some ambiguity in "relaying" ... and "read" ... and "it". 8^D

Nick wondered if there was something LLMs should be doing that they aren't doing. For me, the answer is clearly "no", they're not doing anything I don't expect them to do. And I'm perfectly willing to *bend* them in the same way i enjoy trying to make music with video or audio feedback. (Coercing others into *listening* to that noise is another matter ... Posts to, say, FriAM with LLM responses is almost exactly analogous to encouraging you to listen to my soundcloud posts.)

My disappointment is in the people using LLMs, not in the LLMs. It's akin to my feelings about Trump voters. I'm not disappointed in Trump. He's a simple animal analogous to an LLM (or any explainable model). But I am disappointed in my fellow citizens' inability to understand Trump and use him in ways that mitigate the risks he imposes. What's that adage "Hell is other people"?


On 4/29/25 7:59 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I think it is generally understood that the current crop of commercial LLMs only have trivial memory (which, when active, unfortunately tie together threads that shouldn't be tied together) and no agency.    Incidentally, it appears to me that Grok mostly delegates to what amounts to web searches for X and it often refers to it as "chatter".   Just as a technical matter (and putting aside they have be directed to create propaganda) they must recognize social media is a source of noise and will do harm to technical abilities of the LLM.
> 
> LLMs in their current form are huge knowledge bases having an extremely versatile query system.   Skills are forms of knowledge.   They aren't authoritative, but there are no authoritative sources of knowledge.  When I ask an LLM about cycling it is relaying what it has read.  In the future there may be simulations based on rigid body physics that will augment that.   That would be a straightforward training -- cheaper and faster than human reinforcement training, given the CPU/GPU cycles.   Probably it will occur because it would be useful for making engaging games.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2025 7:40 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree
> 
> Is it, though? Is that good advice? Or is it a programmed response to your prompt? Algorithmically transformed inferences from the gum-wagging, 4chan-influenced, ASCII/UTF found strewn about the internet. TANSTAAFL. And never mind it's ableist bias. Who is "most people"? What is "moderate weather"? Where did those constraints come from? (FWIW, I've ridden my motorcycle on snow using zip ties for traction. I can't help but wonder if the LLM has any experience with that. What would it's advice be?)
> 
> What is "advice"? Nevermind good. Would you take advice about, say, bike riding from an animal/machine who literally cannot and has never ridden a bike? Do you get your medical advice from your auto mechanic? Or the local gun nut who thinks ivermectin treats COVID? Yeah, maybe, sometimes, I guess.
> 
> WTF are we even doing, here? Why is *nonsense* so valent these days?
> 
> On 4/29/25 7:10 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> George gives good advice here!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2025 6:04 AM
>> To: friam at redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree
>>
>> More like if little green creatures came into my kitchen to cook up some stinky fish ... and then leave the kitchen all messy for me to clean up ... the whole house stinking of fish for days ... until they show up again just when it stopped stinking. And as time goes on, they're going to show up more often ... not merely to stink up the house with fish, but to re-landscape the yard, paint the house ugly colors, paint garish murals on all the inside walls, swap out my truck for a "truck" from Elno, and replace the beer in my fridge with fscking *seltzer*.
>>
>> And they'll eventually get on my keyboard and start doing "work" for my clients ... work the clients didn't ask for and don't want ... until they convince them they do want it ... then the little green creatures will evict me and I'll go live under a bridge.
>>
>> On 4/28/25 10:14 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>
>>   > I know.  If small green bipedal creatures landed on earth and started tending to yardwork would that also be a disappointment?
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > They’ve failed to trim my tall hedge, so curse them!
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > *From:*Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson
>>
>>   > *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2025 9:44 AM
>>
>>   > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>
>>   > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > Hi  Marcus,
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > I find that George's indulgence with bad metaphor very useful.
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > I  also find amazing his ability to grasp the gist of what I am asking.  I have essential tremor and a bad keyboard and still George almost always gets the message.  Siri will take any opportunity to misunderstand.
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > In this case, it was I, not George, who was cranking out the sloppy metaphors, trying to find a way to convey just how thin the atmosphere is.  I was hoping Saran wrap thin, but that appears to be an order of magnitude too far.
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > Am I reading this wrong? people often talk about LLM's as if they are /disappointed/ in them, as if there is something they SHOULD do that they aren't doing.  Do you have any idea what the disappointment might be?: What is the world hankering for that they don't provide?
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > Nick
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   > On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 9:37 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com%20%3cmailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> wrote:
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   >     I wonder if the George makers 1) realized that people have an affinity to iffy analogies and they should give the people what they want, or 2) the LLM was prone to generating them so they just made it a feature?
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   >     *From:*Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com%20%3cmailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson
>>
>>   >     *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2025 8:12 PM
>>
>>   >     *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com%20%3cmailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
>>
>>   >     *Subject:* [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree
>>
>>   >
>>
>>   >     George and I were looking for intuition pumps to help a reader imagine how very thin the troposphere is.   Here is what we came up with:
> 

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