[FRIAM] Autopoetic Surrogacy

[glen]

Just on the M-R systems topic for now, the argument was about whether or not M-R systems can be realized, say, in physical mechanism ... like whether cells are (actually) M-R systems, versus whether it's just an ideal model of some conceptual use. The main sticking point, in my not humble opinion, lies in ambiguity, multi-valued definiteness. One guy (Kercel, I think) argued that computational deadlock (and maybe race conditions) are realized ambiguity and that we always have meta-methods that circumvent them. So even if the M-R formalism doesn't address those meta-methods directly, all we'd need is to add that extra bit to the definition. I still haven't read Louie's More Than Life Itself <https://bookshop.org/p/books/more-than-life-itself-a-synthetic-continuation-in-relational-biology-a-h-louie/7875334?ean=9783110321616&next=t>, which may talk more about that.

On 4/30/25 2:17 PM, steve smith wrote:
> 
> On 4/30/25 10:52 AM, glen wrote:
>> So while "autopoetic surrogacy" fits the mistaken conception of these "games", I don't think it fits the actual biology. I can't help but be reminded of the arguments around the ontological status of Rosen's M-R systems. I don't know where it stands now, but when I cared about it, most people thought they could not be actual, only conceptual.
> 
> I will grant that my "autopoetic surrogacy" is a deliberately provocative, self-flagellating, somewhat toxic counter-ideal. ]
> 
> Great reference to Rosen's Metabolism-Repair systems...  though I'm not clear how one distinguishes "actual" from "conceptual" in this context.   It think it is all an abstraction... useful in some contexts, probably totally specious/spurious in others?
> 
> I asked GPT the question but I won't abuse anyone here with the "answer" even though I think it was helpful to my discursive mind (where helpful sadly might mean just compounding my discursions).
> 
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