[FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor.

[thompnickson2 at gmail.com]

I confess I am a bit bewildered here.  Did I miss a memo from Claude?  

 

Nick

 

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, August 7, 2025 3:39 PM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor.

 

Here is Perplexity's assessment of Claude's analysis of your attempt to buttress group selection. Claude's analysis is path dependent (as always). And a critical part of the prompt-pathway is my fascination with the claims against evolution made by (even more ignorant than me) Intelligent Design advocates (IDers). A significant problem with biologists' attempts to *charitably* address issues raised by IDers is that the IDers are not humble enough to learn what *working* evolutionary biologists actually *do*. Claude was charitable to you, Nick, too in saying that your work is perhaps too philosophical and/or metaphorical to be directly relevant to current work in evolutionary biology. So my own conclusion (as incompetent as it is) might be that your paper probably applies well as a case to study in a theory of metaphor, but is largely irrelevant to evolutionary biology. That's OK. But as Dave points out, we want to be clear about the domain we're in: a theory of metaphor *or* hypothesis formulation in biology. I claim we shouldn't conflate those two domains.

Anyway, here's Perplexity's assessment of Claude's claims:


1. Gardner (2015): Mathematical Resolution of Thompson’s Ambiguities


Claim: Gardner’s work rigorously separates individual and group contributions to evolutionary change, resolving Thompson’s “flock” ambiguity with the Price equation.

Is Citation (Gardner 2015) Appropriate?

*	Yes. Gardner (2015) explicitly develops a genetical theory of multilevel selection and uses the Price equation to mathematically decompose group vs. individual effects, addressing foundational issues of operationalizing group selection. <https://academic.oup.com/jeb/article/28/2/305/7381362> ^1_1

Improvement: Citation is appropriate and robust for this claim.


2. Simon et al. (2013): General Mathematical Solution for Multilevel Selection


Claim: Simon et al. (2013) unify multilevel population processes with mathematical modeling, clarifying group “parents” via explicit group reproduction and composition.

Is Citation Appropriate?

*	Yes. Simon et al. (2013) address the need for explicit multilevel event modeling and use continuous-time Markov chains to clearly distinguish group- and individual-level events, directly tying into both conceptual and mathematical ambiguities. <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23730751/> ^1_3


3. Price (1970/1972): Foundational Price Equation


Claim: The Price equation provides a recursive partitioning formula for selection at any level, allowing for formal group fitness definition.

Is Citation Appropriate?

*	Entirely correct. Price’s original and follow-up work establish the equation’s centrality. See Price (1970) and Price (1972), both cited broadly as the mathematical basis for partitioning selection at multiple levels. <https://www.nature.com/articles/227520a0> ^1_5


4. van Veelen et al. (2012, 2014): Mathematical Non-Equivalence of Frameworks


Claim: van Veelen and collaborators demonstrate critical limitations, showing group selection is not always reducible to inclusive fitness or the Price equation.

Citations: van Veelen (2012), van Veelen (2014). <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21839750/> ^1_6

*	Correct and highly relevant: both papers provide modern mathematical counter-examples and directly engage with the limits of equivalence between approaches.


5. Traulsen and Nowak (2006): Stochastic Group Formation Model


Claim: Group structure can emerge naturally from population structure; offers a mechanistic, not arbitrarily-imposed, solution for group selection modeling.

Citation: Traulsen & Nowak (2006). <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16829575/> ^1_8

*	Accurate: Their model lets groups arise dynamically rather than being defined a priori, fulfilling the intended rhetorical point.


6. Hamilton (1964a,b) & Queller (2011): Inclusive Fitness Theory and Extensions


Claim: Hamilton’s “rb>c” rule sidesteps group boundary issues. Queller generalizes to “kin, kith, kind,” separating individual and social effects quantitatively.

Citations: Hamilton (1964), Queller (2011). <https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1100298108> ^1_9 <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022519364900396> ^1_11

*	Both are strongly appropriate. Hamilton founded inclusive fitness theory and Queller explicitly expands it to broader social contexts. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Genetical_Evolution_of_Social_Behaviour> ^1_10


7. Gardner (2015) and Structured Populations: Unresolvable Class Structures


Claim: Gardner (2015) demonstrates that group decomposition is sometimes impossible in highly structured populations, revealing new analytical tensions.

Citation: Gardner (2015). <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25475922/> ^1_2

*	Supported: Gardner discusses “irreconcilable classes” and the challenges of meaningful within- and between-group covariance calculations in structured settings.


8. Marshall (2011) vs. van Veelen et al. (2012): Ongoing Debate on Framework Equivalence


Claim: Marshall argues for, van Veelen against, universal equivalence of group selection/inclusive fitness (formal equivalence controversy).

Citations: Marshall (2011), van Veelen (2012). <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21839750/> ^1_12 <http://web.evolbio.mpg.de/~garcia/preprints/08.pdf> ^1_6

*	Accurate and well-chosen citations. The Marshall review discusses equivalence claims; van Veelen et al. provide mathematical dissent.


9. Fletcher & Zwick (2007), Nowak (2006), Hilbe et al. (2018): Explicit Parameterization via Game Theory


Claim: Game theory resolves ambiguities by making group formation, structure, and trait attribution explicit in the model.

Citation: Nowak (2006), Hilbe et al. (2018). <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16829575/> ^1_8

*	Nowak’s “five rules” for the evolution of cooperation are the field’s standard reference for mechanistic, parameterized modeling.
*	Hilbe et al. (2018) extends classical models for information flow and flexible group boundaries; relevant as cited.


10. Wade (1976, 1977), Philson et al. (2025): Empirical Approaches


Claim: Wade’s experiments operationally define groups and fitness, Philson’s fieldwork on wild marmots uses social network methods for group boundaries and traits.

Citation: Wade (1976), Philson et al. (2025). <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16829575/> ^1_8

*	Citation to Wade is historically foundational and warranted.
*	Philson et al. (2025) (if published as stated) would be highly relevant for contemporary empirical methodology.


11. Wynne-Edwards (1962): Historically Important, Theoretically Ambiguous


Claim: Wynne-Edwards raised group-level explanations, often ambiguous, but some cases may be valid under modern theory.

Citation: Wynne-Edwards (1962).

*	Correct for historical reference; less so for modern resolution, but that is acknowledged in the content.


Conclusion: Citation Audit


*	Most citations are accurately and specifically applied to the claims made. No clear mismatches requiring replacement were detected for major rhetorical points.
*	Pivots like the Price equation, the debate on equivalence (Marshall/van Veelen), and modern empirical evolution studies all use canonical and robust literature.

If a citation is missing or weak—for example, if you wish to cite a specific field study for social network-based group delineation and cannot access Philson et al. (2025)—recent field network analyses in wild animals (see Farine & Whitehead, 2015, “Constructing, conducting and interpreting animal social network analysis”) would serve as an alternative.


Summary Table: Citation Appropriateness


Theoretical Point

Citation(s)

Appropriateness/Relevance

Replacement Needed?


Mathematical formalization/Price equation

Gardner (2015), Price (1970, 1972)

Excellent

No


General theory of multilevel processes

Simon et al. (2013)

Strong

No


Inclusive fitness and boundary issues

Hamilton (1964a,b), Queller (2011)

Field-standard

No


Equivalence/non-equivalence debate

Marshall (2011), van Veelen (2012, 2014)

Specifically relevant

No


Mechanistic/game-theoretic models

Nowak (2006), Hilbe et al. (2018)

Industry standard

No


Empirical/operational definition (beetle experiments, wild networks)

Wade (1976), Philson et al. (2025)

Foundational/contemporary

No (unless Philson unavailable)


Historical ambiguity/group adaptation

Wynne-Edwards (1962)

Canonical for controversy

No

Recommendation: Your bibliography is thoroughly curated and defensible for each major rhetorical or theoretical point in the analysis. If more topical or current empirical works are needed, specifically for fieldwork using social networks, cite Farine & Whitehead (2015) as a supplement to the Philson reference if necessary.

On 8/5/25 11:10 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

Dear Colleagues in FRIAM, 

Sometimes, if I am going to get anything done, I just have to ignore Friam, and keep my head down, and work at the thing I am working at.  It always seems, on that occasion, that you-guys dangle in front of me some enticing topic so I must scream and put my fingers in my ears to keep focus on my work.  So it was that when I decided I must fish or cut bait on entropy or it would take me to my grave, that almost immediately you-guys started not one but two conversations close to my heart: on the centrality of metaphor to science and on the group selection controversy.  

A couple of decades ago I brought those two interests together in  a paper called “Shifting the Natural Selection  Metaphor to the Group Level.  There are two things about this paper that make it salient for me.  The first is that I think it is the best paper I ever wrote.  The second is that for each of the two people whom I most hoped to reach when I wrote it, D. S. Wilson and Elliott  Sober, it is a piece of  crap. In it, I try to show that the problem with metaphors is not with their use in scientific thinking: on the contrary, it is with their ill-disciplined use.  Metaphors need to be worked in a systematic way, not simply flung out in a gust of poetic exuberance.  This lesson  I try to teach by working the natural selection metaphor in a systematic way to show that if it had been treated seriously in the first place, the whole dispute about group selection might have been  avoided.  Thus the paper is not only arrogant, but meta-arrogant.   

Nothing is more pitiable than the retired academic who would do anything to have anybody read his moribund essays.  But, alas, I simply am such a person.  So, I am attaching a copy of the paper  in the hope that it will have some value to you within the context of your two discussions.  

Mumble,

Nick 

 

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