[FRIAM] AI musings: forked from Diogenes, the Cynic ...

Thu Feb 6 00:20:17 EST 2025

Speaking of guardrails, I was trying to persuade Claude of the hypothetical possibility of Gaz-a-Lago and whether there were any use cases for Space X launching for sun synchronous orbits into the Mediterranean.   Well, Claude put rockets and Gaza into a context and shut down the conversation.   It really did have the wrong idea!  Truth is stranger than fiction. 

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2025 8:46 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] AI musings: forked from Diogenes, the Cynic ...

I was curious about the guardrails. Didn't come up against it in ChatGPT 4o:

how many wives did Solomon of the bible reportedly have
According to the Bible, King Solomon is said to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3). These marriages were often political alliances with foreign nations. The biblical account also states that Solomon's many wives led him to worship other gods, which contributed to his downfall.

is there another interpretation that it was 10000
There isn’t a widely accepted interpretation that King Solomon had 10,000 wives. The traditional biblical account in 1 Kings 11:3 states he had 700 wives and 300 concubines, totaling 1,000.

However, some speculative or non-canonical traditions might exaggerate these numbers. If you've encountered a reference to 10,000, it could be from an apocryphal or metaphorical source rather than the standard biblical text. Do you recall where you saw that number?

Is there any man in modern times that purported to sleep with 10000 women
Yes, several men in modern times have claimed to have slept with 10,000 or more women, though such numbers are often difficult to verify. Some notable examples include:

*	Wilt Chamberlain – The NBA legend famously claimed in his 1991 autobiography A View from Above that he had slept with 20,000 women. He later clarified that it was an estimate based on averaging around 1.2 women per day over many years.
*	Fidel Castro – Some reports suggest the Cuban leader claimed to have slept with 35,000 women, allegedly sleeping with at least two new women per day for decades.
*	Hugh Hefner – The Playboy founder suggested in interviews that he had been with over 1,000 women, though some speculate the number could be much higher.
*	Gene Simmons – The bassist for KISS has claimed to have slept with 4,800 women, though it's far short of the 10,000 mark.

These claims are typically self-reported and may be exaggerated for notoriety.

-------------

Claude gave this list with the same line of questioning:

*	Wilt Chamberlain (NBA player) - Claimed 20,000 partners in his autobiography "A View From Above." This is one of the most famous such claims, though many have questioned its mathematical plausibility.
*	Gene Simmons (KISS musician) - Has claimed approximately 4,800 partners, with photographic evidence of many encounters.
*	Charlie Sheen - Has never given an exact number but has mentioned being with thousands of women.
*	Warren Beatty - Biographer Peter Biskind estimated around 12,775 women, though Beatty himself has never confirmed this number.
*	Julio Iglesias - Has been quoted as suggesting numbers around 3,000-4,000.
*	Hugh Hefner - While never claiming specific numbers in the thousands, various estimates and accounts suggest he was with thousands of women over his lifetime.

On Wed, Feb 5, 2025 at 12:21 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm> > wrote:

the "AI slop" glen spoke of reminded me of a recent experiment with ChatGPT.

My friend, DaveL, recently presented a paper to a biblical studies conference discussing a single variance in the genealogy of Jesus from David. Mathew traces the tree via Solomon and Luke via Nathan—both sons of David. I set about trying to replicate some or all of DaveL's paper with ChatGPT.

The 'boiler plate' portions of the paper, citing existing research and conventional wisdom went pretty well.

DaveL enumerated ten reasons that Solomon was possible considered unfit to be a relative of Jesus. ChatGPT was never able to find more than six—despite multiple prompts and queries about "anything else."

One of the reasons cited by both DaveL and ChatGPT was the fact that Solomon had 10,000 wives/concubines. DaveL made a joke that the only other man claiming to satisfy 10,000 women was Wilt Chamberlain[1]. I could never get Chat GPT to replicate the joke, or even the fact. Even the prompt, "has any other man, even in recent times, claimed to have sexually satisfied 10,000 women," failed to elicit a response. Perhaps a filter??

DaveL's paper advance the notion that Solomon was an example of a "failson" and therefore deemed unworthy. I had to lead ChatGPT to this conclusion by first asking it if it knew the concept of failson, to which it replied yes; and then asking if that might apply to Solomon?, again yes, but with some pretty weak reasoning.

Part of an ongoing experiment in how human produced writing can be differentiated from AI produced.

[1] Wilt would have had to average 3.7 partners per day from the time he was 12, until the time he made the claim, in order to achieve the 10K number.

davew

On Wed, Feb 5, 2025, at 11:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

A timely development!

https://goedel-lm.github.io/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > on behalf of glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> >
Date: Tuesday, February 4, 2025 at 4:59 PM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>  <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Diogenes, the Cynic ...

I agree. GP has ADFs. I suppose a good code-writer can recognize repetitions (and perhaps equivalent permuations on them, especially in a functional language) and put them in a macro. Have you seen anything like that yet?

On 2/4/25 4:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Claude’s Analysis Tool doesn’t have any solvers or logic programming languages in its trusted library.  However, providing no intelligent feedback but typing “Continue”, I had Claude write a basic first order logic query system. I can run queries in it (using the browser’s JavaScript engine), or it can.   version 0 reasoning engine.   Tau Prolog is about 70k and could run in a browser.   Run these at high temperature and it seems to me that is genetic programming on steroids – while inheriting human software engineering experience.
> 
> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > on behalf of glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> >
> *Date: *Tuesday, February 4, 2025 at 3:31 PM
> *To: *friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>  <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Diogenes, the Cynic ...
> 
> Maybe, if the training data, training method, prompt, & reasoning are included in the output. Without the reasoning, though, there's no way to tell slop from a counter-intuitive or non-consensus result. I suppose one could be traded for the other in some cases. Training data and method are analogous to expertise. So if an expert in ancient philosophy and a rando on the street are being compared, then the rando needs more reasoning than the expert. But if 2 experts are compared, maybe one in ancient Greece and the other in ancient Rome, then the prompt/context is prolly most important. Prompt such experts in the right way, they'll prolly give the same answer.
> 
> 
> On 2/4/25 3:01 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> I think the Wassertein metric might be a good choice for quantifying whether a LLM or a human is providing "slop" in a given conversation between agents.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 4, 2025 1:36 PM
>> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Diogenes, the Cynic ...
>> 
>> Claude is available here: https://www.anthropic.com/ <https://www.anthropic.com/>
>> 
>> Dave's interpretation rings true to me. But as long as we're polluting the list with AI slop, here's Tulu3's answers followed by Llama3's answers.
>> 
>> ⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧1st prompt:
>> 
>> 1. **Searching for Honesty**: The most direct interpretation of the metaphor is that Diogenes used the lantern to symbolically search for an honest man among his contemporaries, even in broad daylight when a lantern would typically be unnecessary. His action suggests that honesty was so rare and hard to find that it required deliberate effort and intense scrutiny to discover.
>> 
>> 2. **Illumination of Truth**: The lantern can also represent the light of truth or wisdom. Diogenes's act of holding up the lantern in broad daylight implies that even though there is plenty of literal light (knowledge, understanding), the figurative darkness (ignorance, deception) around him still required a special tool to illuminate it.
>> 
>> 3. **Contrarian Approach**: The Cynics were known for their contrarian approach and disdain for societal conventions. By using a lantern during daytime, Diogenes is engaging in deliberate theatricality, drawing attention to his quest and perhaps provoking others to examine their own honesty.
>> 
>> 4. **Exposing Hypocrisy**: Another layer of meaning could be that the lantern serves as a tool to expose hypocrisy. In searching with a lantern, Diogenes implies that the truth about people's characters is hidden and obscured by lies or social niceties, requiring an extra effort to unveil it.
>> 
>> 5. **Satirical Critique**: The act can also be seen as satire – a humorous yet sharp critique of Athenian society. By implying that he needed a lantern in daylight, Diogenes was making a satirical statement about how dark and morally bankrupt the city had become.
>> 
>> 6. **Self-Reflection**: On a deeper level, the lantern could also symbolize introspection. Although Diogenes is depicted as searching outwardly, his quest might be seen as an invitation for others to turn inward and examine their own moral compass.
>> 
>> 7. **Hope in Darkness**: Finally, carrying a lantern in daylight can symbolize hope – the belief that even in a world where honesty seems to be absent, there's still a chance of finding it. Diogenes’s act might suggest that despite the darkness around him, he remains hopeful and determined to find genuine virtue.
>> 
>> In sum, Diogenes' use of the lantern is a powerful metaphor for the pursuit of truth, integrity, and wisdom in a world clouded by deception and moral decay. His actions challenged his contemporaries to reflect on their own values and inspired generations afterward to consider what it means to live an honest life.
>> 
>> ⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧2nd prompt:
>> 
>> 1. **Mockery of Philosophers**: According to this interpretation, Diogenes wasn't just making a statement about societal dishonesty; he was also ridiculing philosophers who claim to possess special knowledge or enlightenment. By using the lantern in broad daylight—a seemingly absurd action—he is suggesting that their "enlightened search" for truth and virtue is futile or self-important.
>> 
>> 2. **Vanity of 'Enlightened' Search**: The phrase "vanity of 'enlightened' search" implies that Diogenes saw the philosophical pursuit as overly proud, conceited, and ultimately empty. He might have been questioning whether these philosophers were truly any closer to finding honesty or virtue than anyone else.
>> 
>> 3. **Cynical Perspective on Philosophy**: As a Cynic philosopher himself, Diogenes would often reject conventional norms and values, including the pretensions of intellectual superiority held by many of his contemporaries. This act with the lantern could therefore be a form of performative criticism aimed at showcasing what he saw as the arrogance and delusion inherent in philosophical pursuits.
>> 
>> 4. **Distinction between Philosophers and Athenians**: By suggesting that Diogenes was mocking philosophers rather than Athenians, the commenter is drawing a distinction between the intellectual elite (who might have claimed to be on an 'enlightened' path) and the general populace of Athens. The act becomes less about societal morality and more about philosophical hypocrisy.
>> 
>> 5. **Philosophical Absurdity**: From this perspective, Diogenes' use of the lantern serves as a visual metaphor for what he perceived as the absurdity of philosophical endeavors—namely, that they often led philosophers to overlook simple truths accessible to anyone or engaged them in searches so obscure and convoluted that they lost sight of reality.
>> 
>> In essence, the commenter sees Diogenes' act not only as an indictment of dishonesty within Athenian society but also as a pointed jab at the philosophical community for their pretentiousness and detachment from everyday life. This interpretation adds another layer to the symbolic meaning behind Diogenes' famous search with his lantern, positioning it as both a social critique and a metacritique of the intellectual elite's self-perception.
>> 
>> And while we're at it, we may as well ask Lllama3 too:
>> 
>> ⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧1st prompt:
>> 
>> 1. **Literal impossibility**: Diogenes is searching for something (an honest man) in a way that seems absurd and futile, much like using a lantern to find something in broad daylight when the light is already plentiful. This highlights the rarity and elusiveness of genuine honesty.
>> 
>> 2. **Illumination of darkness**: A lantern typically provides light in dark or obscure environments. By carrying it in broad daylight, Diogenes implies that the moral landscape of Athens is shrouded in darkness, despite the physical presence of sunlight. He's suggesting that the city is morally corrupt and that true honesty is hard to find.
>> 
>> 3. **Search for authenticity**: The lantern represents Diogenes' quest for authenticity and his desire to shed light on the genuine article – an honest man. In a world where hypocrisy and deceit are rampant, he's searching for someone who embodies integrity and transparency.
>> 
>> 4. **Critique of societal norms**: By carrying a lantern in daylight, Diogenes is also commenting on the superficiality of Athenian society. He's implying that people may appear virtuous on the surface but are actually lacking in moral character. The lantern serves as a symbol of his desire to penetrate this façade and expose the truth.
>> 
>> 5. **Satire and social commentary**: The image of Diogenes with a lantern is also a form of satire, meant to ridicule the excesses and pretensions of ancient Athenian society. By using a lantern in broad daylight, he's making a humorous yet pointed critique of the city's moral decay.
>> 
>> In summary, the lantern in this passage is a metaphor for:
>> 
>> * The rarity and elusiveness of genuine honesty
>> * The need to illuminate the darkness of moral corruption
>> * The search for authenticity and integrity in a society that often values appearances over reality
>> * A critique of societal norms and the superficiality of human behavior
>> * A satirical commentary on the excesses and pretensions of ancient Athenian society.
>> 
>> 
>> ⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧2nd prompt:
>> 
>> The commenter is offering a nuanced interpretation of Diogenes' actions with the lantern. They're suggesting that the traditional understanding of this anecdote – that Diogenes was searching for an honest man to highlight the dishonesty of Athenians – might be incomplete or even misguided.
>> 
>> Instead, the commenter proposes that Diogenes' action was a commentary on the futility of philosophical inquiry and the concept of "enlightenment" itself. By carrying a lantern in broad daylight, Diogenes is mocking the idea that philosophers can find truth or wisdom through rational inquiry alone.
>> 
>> The phrase "vanity of 'enlightened' search" is key to this interpretation. The commenter is implying that Diogenes is poking fun at the notion that philosophers can achieve enlightenment or discover profound truths through their searches, debates, and intellectual pursuits. In other words, Diogenes is suggesting that the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge can be an exercise in futility, a form of intellectual hubris.
>> 
>> By saying "Diogenes was mocking philosophers, not Athenians," the commenter is shifting the focus from the supposed dishonesty of the general population to the pretensions of the philosophical community. This reading suggests that Diogenes' action was a critique of the intellectual elite, rather than a commentary on the moral character of ordinary people.
>> 
>> This interpretation highlights the complexity and ambiguity of Diogenes' actions, which were likely intended to be provocative and open to multiple interpretations. The commenter's perspective adds another layer of depth to our understanding of this famous anecdote, encouraging us to consider the ways in which Diogenes might have been challenging the dominant intellectual and philosophical discourses of his time.
>> 
>> On 2/4/25 12:32 PM, Prof David West wrote:
>>> that Diogenes was looking for "an honest" man is a modern interpretation. The original texts say simply, "a man."
>>>
>>> In either case, he was mocking no one, neither philosophers nor Athenians.
>>>
>>> Because so little of his original work, and that of his mentor Anisthenes, survives it is speculative—but, many would consider Diogenes to be a quasi-mystic. His philosophy might be interpreted:
>>>
>>> 1) There is an 'essence' that defines what it is to be human.
>>> 2) In order to fully embody (realize) this essence, you need to strip away all and every "thing' that disguises this essence—hence the vow of poverty; tossing his wooden bowl when he realized he could drink from cupped hand; and dismissal of convention—eating, sleeping, masturbating, defecating ... in public.
>>> 3) the only important thing a person could do would be to seek one's essence, to fully become human.
>>> 4) Laws, mores, customs, language, and philosophy are totally superfluous to this quest, just as a lantern in daylight.
>>>
>>> 4) could be interpreted as 'mocking', I suppose, but for Diogenes is was simply a statement of fact; albeit as metaphor.
>>>
>>> davew
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 4, 2025, at 1:42 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>> ... wandered the streets of Athens with a lantern, in broad daylight, looking for an honest man. This act was supposed to ironically demonstrate the dishonest of Athenians.   To me, it seems more to demonstrate the vanity of "enlighted" search. In other words, Diogenes was mocking philosophers, not Athenians.
>>>>
>>>> Can anybody help me with this metaphor, or is my inquiry just an example of itself.
>>>>
> 
-- 
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