[FRIAM] May you live in interesting times
Barry MacKichan
barry.mackichan at mackichan.com
Thu Jan 23 10:50:22 EST 2025
So we need an LLM to determine if the Turing test has been passed? I
detect recursion, or as it is commonly called, a rabbit hole.
- Barry
On 22 Jan 2025, at 20:27, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I was addressing the mistaken claim that using a LLM create content
> is easy to detect. It would require some thoughtful setup work and
> testing, but that could be more fun and educational than writing the
> content directly. From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of
> glen <gepropella at gmail.com>Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2025 at 5:06
> PMTo: friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] May
> you live in interesting times I bet it can't simulate Marcus. Because
> most of Marcus' posts are one liners, often with some ironic twist
> that I'm sure is there, but evades me. I guess if you have enough one
> liners to provide examples, then restrict the response to only a few
> tokens, that might work. But you'd prolly also have to get it to
> iterate a couple of times... Generate a wordy 0th response, feed that
> back in to generate a less wordy 1st response, etc. ... maybe for 3-5
> iterates. Then post the last one of only 5 words ... and maybe
> followed by a random picture from the internet or a link to an
> Atlantic article. >8^DI think Gillian would also be difficult to
> simulate. It would be pretty cool to classify everyone according to
> how well they could be simulated. Of course, there's a disconnect
> between the validator and the referent. Just because everyone other
> than P agrees that person (P) is well-simulated doesn't mean the
> simulator fully expresses any deeper or interpolated meaning P
> steganographically hid in the carrier message. What's that line by the
> Butthole Surfers? "Ya never know just how you look through other
> people's eyes."On 1/22/25 12:59 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:> Easy to
> avoid this problem.> > -----Original Message-----> From: Friam
> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West> Sent:
> Wednesday, January 22, 2025 1:04 PM> To: friam at redfish.com> Subject:
> Re: [FRIAM] May you live in interesting times> > two things:> > 1)
> isn't it interesting that human beings, with only a short exposure to
> LLM generated text can instantly spot 'suspicious' and
> 'likely-LLM-sourced' writing. Not just glen, but all of my university
> professor friends can spot and know with certainty that LLM generated
> test answers or papers are exactly that. The only problem they have is
> the bureaucratic procedures required to hold a student accountable and
> the fact that Deans, determined to retain students, almost always give
> student's the benefit of the doubt. It seems to me that ChatGPT, Grok,
> Claude, et. al. are failing the Turing test in a most obvious manner.>
> > 2) Free Speech. Why is all the focus on the speaker? Exactly what
> difference does it make what the preacher says, even if using a
> megaphone, if no one is on the corner listening? True, if I am an
> office worker at my desk, with no option to work from home, and the
> megaphone results in my being, more or less, compelled to listen;
> there is an issue. Solution is to take away the megaphone, nothing
> more. My right to speak is protected; there is not right to compel
> others to listen to me.> > in the case of X, I would argue that there
> is no compulsion to listen, so no issues of free speech. I am less
> certain about Facebook or Tik Tok, mostly because they have become
> such "attractive nuisances" that there is some degree of compulsion.
> But the solution is not control of the speech per se, it is holding
> the platforms to the same legal liability as a person who puts in a
> pool and someone drowns. The homeowner is liable for building the
> attractive nuisance; even if the homeowner put up a fence and even if
> the person trespassed.> > davew> > On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, at 2:26 PM,
> glen wrote:> > > I hope I'm wrong. But that text reads like it was
> generated by an LLM.> > > My point was that artifacts like Section 230
> are NOT about free speech> > > in any way, fashion, or form. Free
> speech is an individual right that> > > is meaningless in the context
> of platform moderation. Using "section> > > 230" and "free speech" in
> the same context is non sequitur.> > >> > > Another analogy is to the
> public square (not the "town square"). You> > > can be trespassed from
> public spaces, even though they're public.> > > While this typically
> happens from "disorderly behavior", it could also> > > happen from
> "free speech". Elno Musk's vision for X is simply to> > > manipulate
> the zeitgeist to his benefit, no more, no less. Any> > > pretense he's
> doing this for some *public* good is so obviously false,> > > I can't
> believe you (or even Grok) might believe it.> > >> > > Of course, the
> libertarian principle is that if there exists a Good,> > > the best
> path to it is through the diversity of visions and pursuits> > > ...
> collective "action" through individuality. Bizarre paths of> > >
> failure do tiny bits of damage and fall away while pursuits and> > >
> visions with merit succeed or gain a (cult) following. But even here,>
> > > Elno doesn't fit. He's got too much money, "controls" too much
> stuff.> > > He's no longer an individual. He's an institution. And, in
> the same> > > way that corporations shouldn't have free speech, Elno
> should have NO> > > individual rights because he's not an individual.>
> > >> > > On 1/22/25 12:04 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:> > >> There are
> multiple dimensions to the issue of free speech, especially when it
> comes to the transition from individual expression to distribution by
> platforms like X:> > >>> > >> Responsibility for Content
> Distribution:> > >> You raise a valid question regarding who is
> responsible when a platform distributes content: the individual who
> created the content or the platform that disseminates it? The answer
> isn't straightforward due to legal and ethical complexities. If the
> speech in question violates laws, such as defamation, the
> responsibility might legally fall on the individual speaker. However,
> platforms can also be held accountable, especially under laws like
> Section 230 in the U.S., which currently grants them immunity from
> being treated as the publisher or speaker of user-generated content
> under certain conditions. This legal shield is often debated,
> particularly in contexts where platforms are seen to amplify or
> moderate content in ways that influence public discourse.> > >>> > >>
> The Megaphone Analogy:> > >> Your analogy of a street preacher with a
> megaphone is insightful. It highlights that while the content (the
> message about God) originates from the individual, the distribution
> (the megaphone) can amplify its reach and impact. Here, one might
> argue that the responsibility for any harm caused could be shared
> between the content creator and the tool's provider or user, depending
> on how the distribution is managed. This analogy underscores that free
> speech isn't just about what is said but also how it's broadcasted.> >
> >>> > >> Comparing Distribution of Rights:> > >> Your comparison to
> the ownership and use of handguns versus drones with missiles further
> illustrates the point about distribution. Just as there are
> restrictions on certain weapons due to their potential for harm, the
> distribution of speech through powerful platforms might necessitate
> similar considerations. The key difference here lies in the scale and
> potential impact of distribution. While a handgun's harm is immediate
> and localized, a drone's capability could affect a broader area or
> population, akin to how widespread distribution via social media can
> influence societal norms or politics.> > >>> > >> The Role of External
> Pressures:> > >> Another layer to consider is the influence of
> external forces, like government or "deep state" actors, on media
> companies. The example of the Hunter Biden laptop story suggests a
> scenario where free speech could be curtailed not by the platforms
> themselves but by external coercion. Elon Musk's vision for X seems to
> promise resistance to such pressures, aiming to uphold free speech by
> not succumbing to external dictates on what content should or
> shouldn't be shared.> > >>> > >> In essence, while the core principle
> of free speech focuses on the individual's right to express
> themselves, the reality of modern communication involves platforms
> that significantly alter the reach and impact of that speech. The
> promotion of free speech from individual to distributor involves
> navigating these new dimensions of responsibility, ethics, and law.
> The question isn't just whether free speech should be promoted but how
> it should be managed in an age where distribution can exponentially
> increase its effects, both positive and negative.> > >>> > >> On Wed,
> 22 Jan 2025 at 20:35, glen <gepropella at gmail.com
> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com
> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com%20%3cmailto:gepropella at gmail.com
> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com%20%3cmailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>>>
> wrote:> > >>> > >> I'm confused by this promotion of "free speech"
> from the
>>>> individual to a platform. When X (or this mailing list)
>>>> *distributes* my text, who is ultimately responsible for that
>>>> distribution? Me? Or X/redfish.com <http://redfish.com
>>>> <http://redfish.com <http://redfish.com>>> ?> > >>> > >> The
>>>> distribution of some content is not what I'd call "free speech".
>>> Maybe we could make an analogy to a megaphone. Let's say some street
>>> preacher is shouting about God (content) through a megaphone
>>> (distribution). And let's say your hearing is damaged by that
>>> megaphone (distribution). Efficient cause suggests it's the
>>> preacher's fault - or maybe your fault for standing so close.
>>> Material/proximal cause suggests it's the megaphone's fault (or the
>>> manufacturer of the megaphone). But regardless of where any one
>>> person lands in answering that question, everyone should admit that
>>> the content is not the same as the distribution.> > >>> > >> A
>>> similar argument can be made about the difference between, say, a
>>> handgun and a drone carrying a hellfire missile. Should my neighbor
>>> Randy be allowed to own (and/or carry into the sandwich shop) a
>>> handgun? Sure, it's right there in the Bill of Rights. But should
>>> Randy be flying hellfire-laden drones around in Seattle airspace?
>>> No, probably not. What's different about those questions? My answer
>>> is *distribution*, distribution of the threat (flying around) and
>>> distribution of the damage (missile vs. lead slug).> > >>> > >> Why
>>> is the promotion of free speech from individual to distribut[or|ion]
>>> any different from that of other rights?> > >>> > >>> > >> On
>>> 1/21/25 10:27 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:> > >> >> > >> > Regarding
>>> free speech, I acknowledge its drawbacks, but what are the
>>> alternatives? During the Biden administration, there were
>>> allegations of pressure on media to promote a certain narrative,
>>> notably around the Hunter Biden laptop story where 51 former
>>> intelligence officials wrongly suggested it might be Russian
>>> disinformation to influence the 2020 election outcome. This incident
>>> illustrates the dangers of having moderators decide what is true if
>>> those moderators are not guaranteed to be objective and neutral.> >
>>> >> >> > >> > The debate on free speech versus moderated content is
>>> complex. While there are clear pros and cons, I believe that Elon
>>> Musk's approach to free speech on the X platform (formerly Twitter)
>>> is preferable to a system where moderation is evidently biased, as
>>> it was before Musk's acquisition of the platform. However, the
>>> effectiveness of his free speech policies is still a topic of debate
>>> among users, with some arguing that the platform's moderation has
>>> become less about curating content for truthfulness and more about
>>> enabling a broader, sometimes unchecked, range of opinions.> --
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