[FRIAM] intgegration

[glen]

Is it, though? Yeah, I get that it's part of the folk psychology cannon that we're inherently social and *want* to export our fetish to the group.  Or, as a DJ or Christian Pastor, we all really get off on enveloping others into our little cult.

But is that belief real? Do we have data supporting the belief? Of what type is that data? Is there an equivalent amount of unobserved behavior that argues that "we" like to keep things private? But because we like to keep that stuff private, there's no widespread evidence that it exists?

Is the desire for privacy somehow *perverse*? Obviously, if there's a widespread behavior to export our fetish, then it would only be weirdos/terrorists/criminals that would want their behavior to remain private? Right?

This article was deep and interesting: https://asteriskmag.com/issues/08/the-myth-of-the-loneliness-epidemic


On 3/26/25 8:30 AM, steve smith wrote:
> glen concluded/:/
> 
>     / It feels analogous to religious nutjobs who insist that others think/talk in terms of their chosen pantheon. It's like they *need* others to participate in their masturbatory fantasies.
>     /
> 
> I believe this is a widespread human behavior/affect/motivation:   Following McGilchrist's lateralization/bicameralism models, it seems that both the right/intuitive-emotive and the left/analytic-reductionist are capable of entrainment with others...  Glen's RAVE-groove vs Maths-proofs are both examples of things done at least partially (if not significantly) as a public/shared activity.   I know folks who can slap some earcans on and groove out to their best tunes (almost?) as if they were in a mosh-pit or a line-dance (choose your favorite genre). Similarly analytic work is generally something done in relative isolation/privacy, but it is coupled with a collective action... it is often in response to various group-level problem-solving unctions.   There is lots of anecdotal evidence that some folks go off into the wilderness and solve maths proofs in caves and never discuss or share them with anyone, but I suspect the ratio of that activity to those working in academic 
> institutions, teaching one's best tricks to a fresh generation of students, publishing in academic journals, etc. is small.
> 
> That said, there is something to the ebb and flow of coupling across populations and over time.  It is likely that the complexity of expression that can be achieved in relative (albeit temporary) isolation exceeds or at least differs qualitatively from that which emerges while in (tight?) coupling with others? Communal/Collective/Social species/populations would seem to be taking advantage of something?   I'd imagine that the Swarm DevGRoup literature/legacy would have theories or practice around this spectrum of individual/collective intentions?   Or more generally relevant to this group at-large ABMs?
> 
> On 3/26/25 7:44 AM, glen wrote:
>> I think what might be left out of this analysis is the "need for cognition". I don't think emotion and reason are biologically disjoint. But I do think emotion tends to be more systemic, has a positive feedback or a "washes over you" element that reason doesn't usually have. (Perhaps caveat some people, or most people taking a nootropic that facilitates getting into the Flow.) People who exhibit a high "need for cognition" are either less prone to the positive feedback in emotional responses or their reasoning is equally engulfing. I can *imagine* being just as awestruck while working through a complicated proof as being caught up in a cool groove at a rave. I can only imagine it though.
>>
>> People like Allison may have an impoverished need for cognition. But even that may be too simple. He obviously worked very hard on his videos. And it takes more than a little technical and artistic skill to be a successful DJ. Your idea of self-stimulation works in that sense.
>>
>> But what's more interesting is the desire to take whatever stimulus excites you *public*. E.g. let's say I find it fun to flip quarters and count the heads. I could do that for hours on end, till my fingers are sore. What might drive me to a) do that in front of other people? b) Encourage other people to do it? c) Find ways to reinforce how much fun it is? d) If others don't seem to respond, up the ante or get mad at them? Etc. Allison seemed to love gore, violence, putrid hate, etc. as well as a good groove at a DJ gig. Fine. To each their own. But what extra element is added by engineering gore- and hate-filled videos to stoke it in others? That I don't understand.
>>
>> It feels analogous to religious nutjobs who insist that others think/talk in terms of their chosen pantheon. It's like they *need* others to participate in their masturbatory fantasies.
>>
>> On 3/25/25 10:13 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> I don’t know anything more about the Allison story than you provided, but it seems plausible to me there could be a common psychological syndrome here.   In his case, a synergy between stimulation that amounts to pornography combined with the recruitment of parts of the brain used for emotional engagement and moral reasoning.   If one has watched Musk unravel over the last few years, he could be experiencing something similar.  He seems addicted to the transgressive ideas, even more so than Trump.  It gets him off and now there is no social pressure that can contain it.   Even with Tesla trending down, there’s plenty of fuel to keep the fire burning.
>>>
>>>
>>> This paper develops the idea with fMRI evidence:
>>>
>>> https://www.science.org/doi/epdf/10.1126/science.1062872 <https://www.science.org/doi/epdf/10.1126/science.1062872>
>>>
>>> Comparing the two individuals:
>>>
>>>
>>> An emotionally intense self-concept becomes fused with a platform identity.
>>>
>>> That platform becomes the stage for moral, emotional, and identity battles.
>>>
>>> Over time, external feedback (likes, fans, outrage) replaces internal filtering.
>>>
>>> Public behavior becomes more personal, moralistic, and emotionally amplified.
>>>
>>> *Boundaries collapse*— between public/private, personal/professional, belief/strategy.
>>>
>>> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of glen <gepropella at gmail.com>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 7:08 AM
>>> *To: *friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject: *[FRIAM] intgegration
>>>
>>>
>>> Secret Life of Matthew Allison
>>> https://www.propublica.org/article/matthew-allison-dj-terrogram-collective-boise-dallas-humber <https://www.propublica.org/article/matthew-allison-dj-terrogram-collective-boise-dallas-humber>
>>>
>>> Frank and I had several arguments a long while back about the ontological status of the "integrated self" (e.g. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-10217-002) <https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-10217-002)>. Meanwhile, many of us have gone 'round and 'round about the extent to which we can take behaviorism seriously. While Allison may be an extreme case, I maintain that each of us compartmentalizes, not merely as a coping or defense mechanism, but as a fundamental part of what it means to be an animal. I've also accused Dave of the composition fallacy in arguing for high order psychological phenomena as an effect of low order brain lateralization. But I also find "we are multitudes" a convenient if not entirely true rhetorical frame for talking about our (most of us) lack of psychological integration.
>>>
>>> Given all that, I am almost never surprised when one of someone's secret selves peeks through whatever veneer they've presented to me. The default assumption should be epistemic humility. Each time you catch yourself thinking you understand someone, pull out your discipline whip and use it.
>>>
>>> -- 
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>>
-- 
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