[FRIAM] Trump and Afrikaner Refugees

Tue May 20 01:20:24 EDT 2025

Apologies, it appears I got the day wrong — the meeting between Ramaphosa
and Trump is actually scheduled for Wednesday.

On Mon, 19 May 2025 at 20:08, steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> Pieter -
>
> This is what I consider the "best of the list", even above some of the
> very well thought through technical conversations around simulation and
> complexity science and some of the more interesting speculations around
> topics as esoteric and fraught as consciousness and free will.  Grounded
> field reports from those with similar backgrounds (education, technical
> interests) but likely differing socio-cultural perspectives provide me with
> the most interesting parallax.   I really appreciated (by the way) Mohammed
> El Betagy's reports from the Arab Spring straight from the halls of Cairo
> University back in 2008/9 ish?  I believe he has long since abandoned
> (contributing/reading?) this list, but still encounter him through shared
> professional circles...
>
> Your thorough and thoughtful reflection on your own context really brought
> out the vibrancy I wanted to imagine that the "remote post-colonial
> outpost" of SA can represent.  I spent 1 month in New Zealand, the first
> two weeks in the home of a SA couple (professor @ Waikito) from SA who were
> doing home-exchange while they were back home for a holiday visit (Xmas/NY
> 2000) and got a strong sense through them and their extended family (who
> managed our stay in their absence) of strong similarities and affinities
> between SA and NZ, both seemingly a bit of a kinder-gentler variation on
> Australians (who I only met as service workers in NZ and visiting
> scientists at LANL over the years) who are themselves generally quite
> familiar to the (now mostly tamed) frontier culture of the American West,
> but with more colorful (to me) idioms and accents.  I am identified with
> but ashamed of (most of) my frontier roots/embedding...  a confident can-do
> attitude for all it's charm gets very ugly when based in ignorant
> willfulness (or willful ignorance, depending on your class embedding).
>
> I am glad to hear that there is a widespread? attempt/motivation across
> government and civil society in SA to find socio-economic-cultural balance
> in the present which doesn't require denying or perpetuating the wrongs of
> the past.   My limited understanding of the ANC is that it itself is in
> it's own struggle between continuity/progress.  I am glad to hear that
> Ramaphosa represents significant hope to you in the spirit of progress
> (whatever progress actually means in any given context).
>
> The turmoil and struggles of SA seem much more acute and recent than our
> own, though perhaps there is no way to compare a bloated superpower in
> decline with something like your own country.   The stories of your own
> children and families is heartening...   my own two daughters (mid 40s now)
> has a similar texture but with less (obvious) opportunity for emigration
> (or expatriation).   No personal networks outside of the US.   The
> *technical barriers" to being "global citizens" are lower than ever as is
> perhaps the sociopoliticalcultural motivation of the moment with a rogue
> mis(everything)is party running roughshod over our institutions, norms and
> conventional allies.
>
> My eldest, a molecular biologist specializing in mosquito-borne (flavi)
> virus research is facing an imminent collapse of funding (thank you RFKjr)
> and therefore a massive career change at an inconvenient time in her
> personal life (newly purchased home, first grade child, new dog).   She is
> afraid to take seriously the possibility that she could continue the arc of
> her work outside the US but after a month or so of letting the (bad) news
> settle around the pulling of her funding, she is more open to it.  Her
> professional network within her field (flavi and virology in general) is
> good and we are hoping that this will yield good results as she pursues
> more direct routes.  She is at her happiest in an academic wet lab
> culturing things that might make the third world a better place, but her
> mid-career opportunities appear to mostly be middle-management in big
> pharma helping billionaires edge into trillionaire territory.
>
> I was unaware of Ramaphosa's visit to Trump...  I'll keep my eyes/ears
> open for the echoes.
>
> thanks,
>
>   - Steve
>
>
> On 5/19/25 3:20 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> I’d like to add a few thoughts about South African President Cyril
> Ramaphosa, who is visiting Donald Trump today.
>
> I’m deeply proud of two of our presidents since the dawn of democracy:
> Nelson Mandela and Cyril Ramaphosa. But for now, I’ll focus on Ramaphosa.
> He has an extraordinary track record as a skilled negotiator. As a young
> lawyer, he not only founded the powerful mineworkers’ union in South
> Africa, but also negotiated with the mining bosses with remarkable finesse.
> Even then, he demonstrated wisdom beyond his years—he knew when to push and
> when to hold back. In Trump’s language, he understood he didn’t have the
> cards, and chose not to overplay his hand, avoiding a situation where
> everyone would have lost—even though he had the support of the Black
> mineworkers to do just that.
>
> Later, as the ANC’s chief negotiator during South Africa’s transition to
> democracy, he outmaneuvered the ruling National Party. He helped deliver a
> settlement that included full universal suffrage—a major concession the
> National Party had long resisted, especially since it offered no special
> protections for the white minority that was a big line that the National
> Party did not want to violate.
>
> Unfortunately, the presidency of Jacob Zuma did significant damage to both
> the country and the ANC. Corruption flourished, and many unsavory elements
> infiltrated the party. Ramaphosa inherited that mess and, in my view, is
> doing a remarkable job of restoring integrity and accountability—although
> it’s not without cost. One example is his support for the expropriation
> without compensation bill, which I believe is a deeply misguided step.
>
> Still, for me, Ramaphosa is a true hero. I’m grateful that he is leading
> South Africa right now.
>
> I would love to be a fly on the wall during his meeting with Trump today.
>
> On Mon, 19 May 2025 at 08:33, Pieter Steenekamp <
> pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>
>> I would like to begin by briefly addressing Steve’s specific questions
>> before sharing my broader experience of life in South Africa.
>>
>> First, I strongly refute Donald Trump’s claim that white South African
>> farmers are widely subjected to personal violence, leading to their deaths
>> and the confiscation of their land. That narrative is simply not true. Yes,
>> farm murders do occur and are more than isolated incidents. While there
>> might be a small political component to some of them, I believe they are
>> primarily criminal in nature.
>>
>> South Africa has implemented a structured land restitution program,
>> through which many white farmers have been compensated fairly for their
>> land. A law was passed last year allowing land expropriation without
>> compensation under certain circumstances, but to the best of my knowledge,
>> it has not yet been applied. It is certainly not a free-for-all license for
>> Black South Africans to seize white-owned farmland. Should expropriation be
>> implemented, I believe it will be in very limited cases, based on sound
>> reasoning, and executed in an orderly, legal manner.
>>
>> There is also a Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) program in South Africa,
>> which many Afrikaners view as reverse discrimination. I have mixed feelings
>> about BEE and support it reluctantly. On the one hand, the economic
>> disparities between Blacks and Whites must be addressed — it is a sine qua
>> non for building a fair society. On the other hand, the BEE program has
>> notable shortcomings. However, since I cannot offer a better alternative, I
>> support it despite its flaws. I do, however, criticize aspects of the
>> program and acknowledge its unintended negative consequences.
>>
>> Please keep in mind that these are my personal views. Many white
>> Afrikaners hold very different opinions — you’ll often hear their voices on
>> popular American podcasts these days.
>>
>> Now, let me share my general experience of living in South Africa.
>>
>> As in the United States, South Africa is not one single experience —
>> there are many different “South Africas.” I live on a farm just outside the
>> small town of Gouritsmond in the Western Cape, and I feel very safe here.
>> The crime rate is low, and there is a high level of trust between people of
>> all races. For example, a local farmer sells honey from a box at his gate
>> on the honour system — you take a bottle and leave the money in a box. For
>> my wife and me, our life on the farm is paradise.
>>
>> But there are other parts of South Africa where life is very different.
>>
>> In many deep rural areas and urban townships, especially around major
>> cities, Black South Africans live in appalling conditions. The social
>> fabric is weak, and crime — including violent crime — is rampant. However,
>> if you choose not to spend time in these areas, it generally doesn’t affect
>> your daily life. But if you do, you are at high risk of becoming a crime
>> statistic.
>>
>> That said, if you are educated — and there are now probably more educated
>> Black South Africans than Whites — you are not bound to those dangerous
>> areas. There are plenty of safe, livable areas where people of all
>> backgrounds can lead happy and fulfilling lives.
>>
>> Let me give you some examples from my own family.
>>
>> My wife and I have three married children. Our son lives and works in
>> Johannesburg. While he might be open to emigrating, I don’t think his wife
>> is — they are deeply embedded in a strong, active community and would have
>> to give up a lot to leave. Recently, the small company he works for was
>> acquired by a Boston-based firm. He assures us there are no plans to
>> relocate, but I’m not so sure. As newlyweds, they spent two years in Boston
>> and, although they have nothing against it, their hearts are in South
>> Africa.
>>
>> Our eldest daughter, her husband, and their two young sons have emigrated
>> to Denmark. It seems unlikely they will return to South Africa, except for
>> visits. They met as students and, after graduating, took a month-long
>> holiday in London. They came back inspired and determined to find a country
>> where they would want to live and work. Over the next few years, they
>> travelled widely and studied different cultures before deciding that
>> Denmark ticked all the boxes. They made a plan, followed through, and are
>> now very happy there.
>>
>> Our youngest daughter also lives in Johannesburg with her husband and
>> children. They, too, have a vibrant community life. Even if the opportunity
>> arose, I cannot imagine them choosing to emigrate. Her husband’s mother,
>> perhaps compensating for the lack of warmth in her own marriage, now pours
>> all her care into supporting their children — our grandchildren. Our
>> daughter is currently expecting another baby, and it would make no sense
>> for them to move abroad under these circumstances.
>>
>> I believe my children’s situations are typical of young families within
>> my social circle in South Africa. Those who wish to stay can build a
>> fulfilling life here. Those who wish to leave have options. Perhaps this
>> will change in the future, but it has been true for the past few decades.
>>
>> In conclusion, I want to reference Nietzsche’s concept of the interplay
>> between chaos and order.
>>
>> While a fulfilling life requires a balance between the two, that balance
>> differs from person to person. Some are more comfortable with order; others
>> thrive amid chaos.
>>
>> Many Afrikaners long for the perceived order of apartheid-era South
>> Africa and struggle to adapt to the more chaotic reality of the present —
>> and, sadly, racism often plays a role in these sentiments. I am ashamed to
>> admit that, because these are my people. But not all Afrikaners are racist.
>> My family, for example, are not — my daughter and her family  simply prefer
>> the orderly nature of life in Denmark - there really is no racism attached
>> to this.
>>
>> Others, however, embrace the dynamic, changing environment of South
>> Africa, and find meaning in its challenges and opportunities.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 18 May 2025 at 20:18, steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Pieter -
>>> > I'm an Afrikaner living on a farm in South Africa. I recently came
>>> > across some of the claims circulating—especially from the Trump
>>> > camp—about how dire things supposedly are for white Afrikaner farmers
>>> > here.
>>>
>>> Do you actually refute Trump's characterizations?
>>>
>>> Like his statements effectively painting all Mexicans (immigrant or
>>> not?) as "criminals and rapists", his statements suggest that there is
>>> widespread personal violence against white South African farmers leading
>>> to their death and then to confiscation of their land.  Is there any
>>> evidence that this *ever* happens?  Or are there isolated incidents of
>>> criminal violence (people are murdered everywhere in the world from time
>>> to time) juxtaposed with culture/government-wide movements to provide
>>> some level of restitution for the manner in which land was transferred
>>> from indigenous peoples to colonists (of all stripes... e.g. wealthy and
>>> powerful as well as those drawn along by them to do the dirty work of
>>> breaking and working new land including possibly displacing the current
>>> residents)?
>>>
>>> > Just to set the record straight: I don't identify with that narrative.
>>> > Personally, I live very happily on the farm. I don’t farm — I'm here
>>> > for the lifestyle, not agriculture — and to me, it honestly feels like
>>> > paradise. I don’t feel threatened at all.
>>> > Of course, not all white farmers in South Africa have the same
>>> > experience. Some do face real challenges, and discrimination does
>>> > exist. But the situation is complex, and like in every society, there
>>> > are both positives and negatives. No country is perfect.
>>> I also live on a plot of rural land which is nominally "farmland" though
>>> the only farming that has occurred here is a homestead garden (60'
>>> diameter circle), a handful of fruit trees and a small flock of
>>> chickens, all established by myself through my 25 years present. My 1.5
>>> acres is roughly 1/5 of 6 acres that were carved out of the middle of a
>>> sovereign "pueblo" that was "granted" by the King of Spain in 1623 to
>>> the Tewa speaking people living here, very likely direct descendents of
>>> the "ancestral puebloans" (formerly termed "Anasazi").   The grant
>>> stated "1 league in each cardinal direction from the entrance to the
>>> cemetary of the Catholic church).   this measure (nearly) abuts another
>>> 4-league-square granted at the same time by the same time with the same
>>> "stride" (vara) which defined what a league was (5000 varas - 2.6
>>> miles)...    Mine was *taken* from the pueblo in the early 60s by the
>>> private electric company serving much of NM (PNM) to build a transformer
>>> station which was in fact never built.  I couldn't find records but
>>> standard practice (and law) at the time would have involved a (forced)
>>> payment to the Pueblo.   In the 70s the  first private title to the
>>> whole plot showed up under the name of a couple and a single man who
>>> apparently were contriving to build a modest mobile home (aka trailer)
>>> park on the property.  My well and the electric power feed (a co=op not
>>> PNM) were sized for this purpose (for better and worse).   Ultimately
>>> the mobile home park failed to materialize and the property was
>>> subdivided into my 1.5 acres and 4 other plots just over 1 acre each.  3
>>> of those plots now have modern construction/styled commuter homes owned
>>> by folks who were commuting to LANL (as I was when I bought in 2001) 15
>>> miles up the hill.  I believe that the Pueblo had the opportunity to
>>> reclaim the land at the point it was sold into private hands and missed
>>> it (likely for the price they were paid).
>>> > I just wanted to say: yes, I’m a white Afrikaner living on a farm in
>>> > South Africa—but I’m not one of those Trump talks about. For me, this
>>> > is the best place on earth.
>>>
>>> I can imagine that it is similar but quite different from my own
>>> experience here.   Another Pieter from South Africa (Mathematician at
>>> LANL) declares that the only place he finds more beautiful than his
>>> homeland of SA is right here.   I think he is at least partly
>>> referencing the distance from the Apartheid context he grew up in (but
>>> left for college at 18) and the *opportunities* he found a US national
>>> laboratory with (historically) good funding and broad areas of
>>> application for a pure mathematician (working in the T/Theoretical
>>> Division).
>>>
>>> My main purpose in opening this response to your statements about
>>> Trump's characterization of Afrikaner "refugees" is to reflect on the
>>> implications of European, exploration, colonization, the ensuing
>>> displacements and genocide of indigenous populations followed by
>>> variations on "Apartheid" as well as the importation of literal
>>> *enslaved peoples* and the related "indentured servitude" and "company
>>> store" tactics that the capitalist/ruling class often uses to establish
>>> and maintain a virtually free workforce.
>>>
>>> My acutely "Conservative" friends would call my self reflection on such
>>> topics "Liberal Self-Loathing" when in fact I experience it as an
>>> attempt to reflect on my place and part in history (including
>>> future-history) and looking for opportunities *within my jurisdiction*
>>> to act differently than I might if I bought into one of the outstanding
>>> narratives. My 3 modestly MAGA neighbors hold that  "this was an
>>> original Spanish Homestead passed down generationally" ,in spite of all
>>> of our Title histories when purchased showing the PNM (first) title.
>>> It is also the case that our area was entirely unbuildable (or farmable)
>>> before the US highway right next to us was built, redirecting
>>> floodwaters.   Our properties were essentially a (mild) floodplain which
>>> are now protected by the roadbed which directs the water through everal
>>> culverts, collecting the runoff into one large and two small arroyos.
>>> The pueblo acequias end about 200 meters uphill from us in a field
>>> intermittently planted with (ritual) corn.  We have an acutely high
>>> water table because of our topography and proximity to the Rio Grande so
>>> pumped well irrigation is reasonable in spite of the landscape being
>>> acutely dry high-desert in a growing drought context.
>>>
>>> Reviews of the maps of the Pueblo reflect the incremental addition of 3
>>> acequias (irrigation ditches) over the 17,18,19c opening up
>>> significantly more land for irrigation farming.   Many argue that the
>>> land was "useless" until the Spanish Colonists (aka Conquistadors) built
>>> these acequias (designed after the Moorish tradition/style) and
>>> therefore should "belong" to the Spanish Colonists who directed the
>>> natives themselves in the construction of the acequias.   Of course, the
>>> conquistadors brought no women with them in the early waves of conquest
>>> so all descendants of proud Spanish noblemen are very much indigenous
>>> genetically.  For the most part the "land grants" held through the
>>> Mexican revolution and then the Mexican-American war and US
>>> Territoriality in 1848.  There are very few Tewa surnames remaining in
>>> the pueblos, most are Spanish, and there are a very few distinctly
>>> European Spanish descendants among the local populations.  The
>>> boundaries of the pueblos have expanded a little through various US
>>> grants and trades to include their traditional range... to include some
>>> of their hunting grounds in the mountains *outside* the 2 leagues
>>> square.  Many pueblo members live off pueblo, unrecognizeably different
>>> than many of the Hispanic and even Anglo populations.
>>>
>>> My "liberal self-loathing" instinct is to repatriate the land I bought
>>> 25 years ago to the Pueblo in some way.  Their own governance is
>>> dysfunctional enough as are their attempts to *buy* back inholdings such
>>> as mine that I am not clear on how to do that without making a bigger
>>> mess.   There is a Tewa Womens Alliance which formed 40 years ago
>>> originally to respond to domestic violence within the native families
>>> which has expanded their charter to do quite a few progressive things
>>> including re-establishing traditional farming and craft techniques and
>>> preserve the Tewa language (there are 4 distantly related puebloan
>>> language groups in the region).   I believe they might be able to parlay
>>> my little "homestead" into something which vaguely supports the people
>>> that it nominally belonged to when De Vargas and Onate (later) came
>>> charging in with "guns, germs, steel" 500 years ago.
>>>
>>> I was fascinated, BTW to discover that your own (Capetown) European
>>> history predates even Columbus' journey with a visit in 1488 by
>>> Dias...   the complexity of Portuquese, Dutch, French Huguenaut, English
>>> exploration/colonization is quite fascinating and at least as hard to
>>> untangle as any.
>>>
>>> The bigger question is how to embrace the complexity and diversity that
>>> comes with these overlays of overlays without compounding the errors of
>>> the past.  If Trump's framing of the Afrikaner "plight" is accurate then
>>> someone has been perpetuating the original problem in a (tiny) way
>>> similar to what the victims of the Jewish Holocaust are perpetrating on
>>> the Palestinians (particularly Gaza at this moment).   The only "open"
>>> hostilities amongst the folks in this region express themselves moslty
>>> in struggles over water rights and roadway and utility right-of-ways
>>> with the Spanish land-grant descendants mostly antagonistic with the
>>> Pueblos.   Most Anglos recognize they are latecomers and that for the
>>> most part the legal system supports them (us) well.
>>>
>>> Our (Euro-American colonists) genocide and slavery history does not
>>> leave us much room for criticizing others...   most of the ugliness is
>>> well hidden but non-trivial.
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
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>>
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