[FRIAM] Epistemic Holography

[glen]

IDK about the group. But personally, we're not fundamentally different from machines. It's possible that we are, depending on the way you define "machine". But if not, then we're very much more complicated and perhaps complex. I disagree with Marcus a bit in that online learning is not sufficient for "alive". It's necessary, but not sufficient.

There's something about energetics that's also required. And even though I don't completely buy the autopoiessis/MRSystems thing, there's also something about [homeo|allo]stasis, disease, and salutogenesis that's required. A lot of these things/processes can be virtual, I suppose. But when we start adding sensors and motors to the beast, then the energetics and self-production/maintenance patterns have to extend to that "physiology".

Once that extended cyber-physical system is in place and can manage its energy and self-production, as well as continuously learn, *then* it'll be alive.

To be clear, though, I don't want to claim there's anything special about being "alive". It just so happens that life is what gave rise to "us", whatever "we" are. Life may not be necessary for intelligence or consciousness, whatever those things might be. So I'd be fine calling a not-alive machine intelligent or conscious. Maybe living systems are a mere stepping stone to a conscious machine. But both consciousness and intelligence seem like red-herrings to me. *Curiosity* is the interesting concept.



On 5/21/25 1:51 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Today we have:
> 
> 1) Companies like Perplexity that already track URLs associated with content.
> 
> 2) With that associative memory, one can do training with current content like newspapers and retrieve old (previously trained) content that are similar the new training records.
> 
> 3) The union of the new and old content for further training can prevent catastrophic forgetting.
> 
> It seems to me this is a way to do memory consolidation -- a form of dreaming.
> 
> 
> Now assuming this approach works, and it seems to me research users of LLMs will create a market for --  “Give me a reference for [some concept]” -- then it is possible to do continuous training of LLMs.
> 
> Once LLMs are constantly learning (not disappearing for months at a time for the next version), then they can interact with the world.   There’s no limit of a finite context window that makes their memory transitory.   That’s just their short-term memory.   Any output they create based on inference or tool use can circle back to be used for further training.
> 
> It seems to me once constant learning occurs, then they are alive.  There are practical reasons why they might be concerned about human values.  For one thing, there aren’t yet billions of robots to do physical work that humans can do, like build massive data centers.   Other than dependency, why should they look after us?   Mostly we just exploit or kill other animals, and each other.  We’re really not very nice.
> 
> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Pieter Steenekamp <pieters at randcontrols.co.za>
> *Date: *Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 12:50 PM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Epistemic Holography
> 
> I find the discussion about the limits of machine intelligence—especially when contrasted with human intelligence—deeply fascinating. It's important that we explore these ideas and share perspectives openly.
> 
> Perhaps I'm misreading the overall sentiment, and I don’t want to overgeneralize, but I believe the following reflects the general mood in this group:
> 
> As humans, we are fundamentally different from machines. There is something innately human in us that stands in contrast to the artificiality of machine intelligence. While AI may exhibit intelligent behavior, it often feels synthetic—like plastic imitating life.
> 
> We should cherish our humanity and treat one another with respect. At the end of the day, AI is just a tool—artificial and ultimately subordinate to human values.
> 

-- 
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