[FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Thu Feb 16 15:53:45 EST 2017

David, 

Thanks for pitching in.  

I have some hazy data concerning bobolink song that might relate to your hypothesis.  We did two studies of bobolink song in relatively stable and relatively disrupted habitats.  At least that is what we thought was the relevant variable.  In the more stable environment, the song was hierarchically organized into strings of several songs that were widely shared between neighbors in the same field.  Not fractal, exactly, but definitely, multi-level.  In the more disrupted field, the songs were essentially random with no repeated long elements shared between neighbors.  

That’s all I got!

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Prof David West [mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:54 AM
To: Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; Friam <Friam at redfish.com>; Kim Sorvig <sorvig at cybermesa.com>
Cc: friam-owner at redfish.com; alberto.alaniz at ug.uchile.cl; Jenny Quillien <jquillien at cybermesa.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Nick,

As asked (effect, affect impose?), my answer would be no. A partial test of the answer would be to see if the songs of birds living, even for multiple generations, in arguably non-fractal environments, e.g. mid-town Manhattan, lost their fractal nature. This test would not rule out the possibility that the 'evolution' of songs was isomorphic to the evolution of bird morphology AND isomorphic to an evolving fractal environment.

A different way to approach the question might be to ask if "fractality" is somehow a substrate upon which living things rely in order to be recognized as "alive." Two things lead me to ask the question in this manner. First, fractal geometry is used to generate digital landscapes and digital life forms, e.g. trees, with results that are far more "lifelike" than attempts based on other graphical systems — Ed Angel should enlighten us here because it is his area of expertise, not mine.

Second, you have hear me talk of Christopher Alexander and his search for the Nature of Order. He posits fifteen properties (e.g. centers, boundaries, alternating repetition, contrast, deep interlock and ambiguity, etc.) that, he says, are fundamental and essential to the creation of built environments that have "liveness." It has always seemed to me that the compositions created using these fifteen properties would also be, in some manner, fractal.

Jenny might have ideas as to the second reason, but she is in Amsterdam for six weeks preparatory to a move there in the fall and might not see the question on the list. I have asked Richard Gabriel for an answer in his role as another expert on Alexander.

davew

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017, at 03:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below).  I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song.  I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!”  And I was right.  So please welcome him.  Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another.  So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed. 

I particularly wonder what Kim  Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [mailto:alberto.alaniz at ug.uchile.cl] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: nthompson at clarku.edu <mailto:nthompson at clarku.edu> 
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto  Alaniz Baeza

Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación

Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados

Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile

Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas

Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile

Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA

+56996097443

https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/

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