[FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Sat Feb 25 01:26:49 EST 2017

Hell hath no fury as those who presume to speak for another...

On Feb 23, 2017 11:29 PM, "Nick Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> All—
>
>
>
> If you want to find the Dylan Roof key on your own emotional piano, think
> about the last time you indulged yourself in road rage.  According to one
> kind of evolutionary psychology, road rage is an instance of "altruistic
> punishment".  Altruistic punishment is selected at the group level.  When
> in that groove, we are so possessed that we are *willing to risk our own
> lives to support the norms of our perceived in-group*.
>
>
>
> Altruistic rage is by far the most dangerous emotion we experience.  Not
> how Trump works tirelessly to create the conditions that will foster it.
> Every genocide is preceded by “conditioning” to suppose that it is our
> highest duty to defend our values against those who do not share them.
>
> Nick Thompson
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Vladimyr
> Burachynsky
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 7:59 PM
> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs
>
>
>
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think Robert Wall is nudging close to an idea that he failed to
> adequately clarify but you may have nailed it while trying to deny it (this
> I call a backhanded strike). Last week there was a strange article about
> groups of people having the same memory that have no contact with each
> other. That shared memory was in fact  demonstrably false. It was regarding
> a misperceived memory of a TV show called Shazaam and some comedian called
> Sinbad... My mind retains utter garbage sometimes.
>
>
>
> I never saw it but then it never actually happened. The investigators
> explained that so many of the false memory components overlapped reality
> that the subjects truly believed some occurrence that was categorically
> disproved. So a society may well share memories of fictional events and act
> on delusions ie mobs.
>
>
>
> If an individual may fall into a groove then how else can mass insanity be
> better explained. I always recall that in history strange things happen on
> mass scale. For instance during the heated animosity between the Greeks and
> Latins a feud broke out over religious icons. West was Iconophilic and the
> east was Iconoclastic. The Latins were so pissed they assembled an armada
> in Rimini or Ravenna and sailed this monstrosity down the Adriatic to
> defend the faith. Somewhere between Brindisi and Corfu the greatest
> historical storm destroyed the entire fleet of ships sparing Byzantium a
> certain defeat. So Leo made a few compromises and things sort of settled
> down but then another group of serious iconoclasts  made trouble the
> Paulicians. Then the Muslims came along and the world is still fractured in
> many ways. It always struck me as the height of insanity to go to war over
> Symbols and I think Monty Python once made a skit out of crusaders and
> muslims beating the crap out of each other with religious banners and
> gilded reliquaries. While the armed knights and Saracens looked on in
> amazement. Whether this ever happened , I do not know, but can guess.
> Perhaps " the groove" has a darkside a suicidal aspect, such as the Battle
> of Gallipoli, as well as the neutral individual features we love to discuss
> openly.
>
>
>
> I always suspected that Hatred is transmitted from mothers to children as
> is influenza propagation. I recall some very strange conversations between
> my German Mother and Ukrainian Aunt that bordered on the rabid hatred of
> mad dogs. Then they just continued serving Christmas dinner in total
> silence,  when the men returned to the dinner table. My Uncle a  devout
> Catholic and former Ukrainian Cavalry Officer would think nothing of
> Beheading Russians long after he was defeated in the 1920's. Indeed he was
> otherwise a rational Civil Engineer with a penchant for Botany but he hated
> anything that sounded affiliated with Russia or Eastern Orthodoxy. I could
> never tell the difference except for the slanted foot support on the
> crucifix. Hardly enough reason for bloodshed.
>
>
>
> But Dylan Rouffe and Alexandre Bisonette slaughtered  defenseless
> congregations and showed no shame nor regret. They may be said to have been
> proud  of what they did. Anders Brevijk may well have been in a dark trench
> at the time of his methodical depredations of children, again no shame. No
> one mentions that that slaughter by a single man exceeded anything in the
> Old Testament perhaps a Cuiness World Record. Populism may well be a filthy
> outpouring of bottled up hatred. And the perverted demagogues revel in the
> delusion that they can manipulate it to their personal benefits.
>
>
>
> It is not a welcome insight into human nature, I apologize for  disturbing
> the peace.
>
>
>
> Well Canada is sending taxis to the border to rescue Somali's ignorant of
> our cold. Now our old ladies think the sky is falling because of a few
> refugees trying to run from Trump. Back in the 1960's and 70's we took in
> hundreds of American draft dodgers  and the sun remained in Orbit.
>
>
>
> I must admit that I had some fun today speaking to a millennial visitor
> that could no longer abide liberal visciousness  in the media. Left or
> right they are both resorting to fascistic techniques. He expected me to
> support the right but i laughed it off, I am more of a centrist anarchist I
> confessed, the other side of the sphere, so there was no need to abuse my
> hospitality.
>
>
>
>
>
> vib
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <friam-bounces at redfish.com>]
> On Behalf Of glen ?
>
> Sent: February-23-17 5:12 PM
>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs
>
>
>
>
>
> Right, I think I got that you meant society being in the zone.  You
> expressed doubt and I disagree with you -- meaning only that I have less
> doubt. 8^)  I think society can (and does, often) get into a
> zone/groove/flow.  Some symptoms that are often complained about are "mob
> behavior", "groupthink", etc.  Some symptoms that are lauded are "wisdom of
> crowds", "negative freedoms" (freedom to _not_ be mugged, etc.), low
> unemployment, etc.
>
>
>
> My reference to my individual state of mind when I'm engaged in social
> activity was probably misleading, however.  What I should have referred to
> is something like stigmergy or the co-constructed landscape,
> infrastructure.  Some of us complain about the entitlement of the younger
> generations.  But really it's a good thing that they feel entitled ...
> entitled to walk down dark alleys without being killed ... entitled to buy
> a state of the art automobile for only $25k ... entitled to drive that
> automobile and experience the (waning) culture of Route 66.  Etc.
>
>
>
> These are "society in a groove".  And it's a good thing for the most
> part.  There are risks, e.g. populism, riots, the absence of critical
> thinking ... not knowing how to start a fire without a lighter, etc.
>
>
>
> Anyway, so I disagree with the idea that society, as a group, can't be "in
> the zone".  But I believe that the thoughts inside the members of the
> society are not really _shared_ thoughts.  The societal groove does not
> depend on isomorphic relationships between the insides of the members'
> heads. (holography again)  And the extent to which individuals' grooves map
> to societal grooves is unclear (and probably complex).
>
>
>
>
>
> On 02/22/2017 12:18 PM, Robert Wall wrote:
>
> >> As for being in the zone socially, I disagree, though I don't
>
> >> particularly care about any jargonal co-option of the term.  During
>
> >> hearty arguments, mostly with religious people, I definitely lose
>
> >> myself in exactly the same way I lose myself after that 3rd mile when
>
> >> running.  I have no illusions that my zone is in any way shared by
>
> >> the people I'm arguing with, though ... no more than I think you and
>
> >> I share internal constructs mediated by the word "blue"
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To be clear, Glen, I was referring to a society being "in the zone" as
>
> > a whole. Maybe this could mean an alignment of symbolic references.
>
> > Not sure, but, like you, somewhat dubious that this could happen.
>
> > Within my philosophy group, we have discussed the idea of *conscious
>
> > evolution*--becoming, say, wiser, by being "in the zone" so to
>
> > speak--*with respect to the individua*l.  And I do see this as kind of
>
> > a Csikszentmihalyi-est "being in the zone," a period of selfless
>
> > awareness of a task or challenge. It's a neurological phenomenon. The
>
> > objective is to make the period last as long as possible. Society is
>
> > not very good at being selfless, even for a moment.
>
> >
>
> > Perhaps with the assistance of Hebbian learning, say, over time this
>
> > is possible for individuals who work at it to remain in this state
>
> > longer than is typical.  It becomes a skill or practice.  But bubbling
>
> > this up to the level of a society does not seem possible.  Religion
>
> > hasn't and won't do it because that's a model that requires blind
>
> > credulity to the provided surreal symbols.  Even in the context of
>
> > Hebbian learning, where are the "societal neurons" that need to be
> rewired from their inculcated states?
>
> > They tend to be imbued in the laws and in the prevailing morality memes.
>
> > But these are just things to be gamed to ensure a *face validity* with
>
> > our self-full life simulations.
>
> >
>
> > The key component to any smart system is feedback.  But, we live in a
>
> > society that is running open loop.  Another form of loopiness or
>
> > delusion, I guess ... believing that everything will work out in the
>
> > long run.  We are exceptional. We have democratic elections ... Hmmm,
>
> > I think the awakening is happening.  Maybe there is hope?  Is that a
>
> > drone I hear above ... Oh, it's just an Amazone delivery ... or is it?
>
> > :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> ☣ glen
>
>
>
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> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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