[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

[Stephen Guerin]

Yes, and systems can have subsystems.

In my comment to Glen, my point was that a phase space is a description of
a single system.

-S

_______________________________________________________________________
Stephen.Guerin at Simtable.com <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
twitter: @simtable

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:07 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> For what it’s worth, a linear space can have a subspace that is a linear
> space.  Both the larger and smaller spaces are linear spaces.  Of course
> “linear space” is much more precisely defined than “system”.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>
>
> wimberly3 at gmail.com     wimberly at cal.berkeley.edu
>
> Phone:  (505) 995-8715      Cell:  (505) 670-9918
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>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen
> Guerin
> *Sent:* Friday, May 26, 2017 6:40 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?
>
>
>
> Glen writes:
>
> Not quite.  If these systems merely contain subsystems capable of
> exhibiting complexity, then those 3 you listed are not complex systems.
> They are "subsystems capable of exhibiting complexity".  So, no.  They are
> not complex systems in isolation.  Russ' question, I think, targets
> naturally occurring, whole complex systems.
>
>
>
> We disagree on the use of systems and subsystems in the context of phase
> space then. To me, there is one system and that system has a phase space -
> There are not multiple subsystems in the phase space. And as there are
> multiple use of phase space I mean it in this sense:
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space
>
> The phase space can also refer to the space that is parametrized by the
> *macroscopic* states of the system, such as pressure, temperature, etc.
> For instance, one may view the pressure-volume diagram or
> entropy-temperature diagrams as describing part of this phase space. A
> point in this phase space is correspondingly called a macrostate. There may
> easily be more than one microstate with the same macrostate. For example,
> for a fixed temperature, the system could have many dynamic configurations
> at the microscopic level. When used in this sense, a phase is a region of
> phase space where the system in question is in, for example, the liquid
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid> phase, or solid
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid> phase, etc.
>
>
>
>
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>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Stephen.Guerin at Simtable.com <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
>
> CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
>
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> office: (505)995-0206 <(505)%20995-0206> mobile: (505)577-5828
> <(505)%20577-5828>
>
> twitter: @simtable
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 6:08 PM, glen ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 05/26/2017 04:54 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:
> > I am listening to Russ. I do think he's defining a sub-class of complex
> > systems (eg living systems). I would like to keep the definition of
> > "complex systems" broader than that though.
>
> OK.  But I don't think he's necessarily _asserting_ that only living
> systems are complex systems.  He's just asking the question and engaging in
> a discussion wherein we might be able to refine his sub-category so that it
> includes physical systems.
>
> > I understand the subtle distinction your trying to make. I would say the
> > full phase space of a *complex system* has narrow critical regimes in
> their
> > behavior (phase) space where *complex behavior* is observed as the
> control
> > parameters are swept through the phase transition. In the critical regime
> > we see complex behavior like sensitivity to initial conditions, critical
> > slowing down, critical fluctuations, power law statistics, long-range
> > correlations, etc. On either side of the phase transition (eg
> sub-critical
> > and super-critical) regimes, these statistics and behaviors are not
> present.
> >
> > That said, while the critical regime may be narrow in phase space many of
> > these system "self-tune" to the critical point but that's another thread.
> >
> > Agreed?
>
> Not quite.  If these systems merely contain subsystems capable of
> exhibiting complexity, then those 3 you listed are not complex systems.
> They are "subsystems capable of exhibiting complexity".  So, no.  They are
> not complex systems in isolation.  Russ' question, I think, targets
> naturally occurring, whole complex systems.
>
> Now, if we add the experimental apparatus that, eg, maintains a ZB
> reaction for a long time, then that _whole_ system can be called a complex
> system.  But there's significant meat to the controlling subsystem ... and
> we biological creatures instantiated it.  The case is the same with, say,
> glycolysys.
>
> All you need do is identify the circumstances where those three processes
> (ferromag, benard cells, BZ reactions) occur in nature and then we might be
> able to identify the systems in which they sit.  Then we can test them
> against whatever predicate we want.
>
>
> --
> ☣ glen
>
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