[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

Mon May 29 00:06:55 EDT 2017

Again, apologies for getting into this discussion so tardily?   

Is a hurricane a "complex system"?  

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 11:37 PM
To: Russ.Abbott at gmail.com; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

Russ -

I think your message got lost in the "uncanny valley"... the conversation
has been so rich that this contribution (by the instigating author of the
thread) did get lost to it's relative obviousness.   I know *I* read through
it and nodded my head but instead felt compelled to respond to SG's post
which *was* (I think) in response to this.

I have suggested a new thread and this type of question (dual-worldness)
would probably be central to it.   I do hope others weigh in.

- Steve

On 5/28/17 1:58 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

I'm wondering whether the message below got lost. Our did no one think it
worth mentioning?

On May 28, 2017 6:35 PM, "Russ Abbott" <russ.abbott at gmail.com
<mailto:russ.abbott at gmail.com> > wrote:

Greetings from Jerusalem! Quite an amazing city. Never been here before.
Quite an amazing discussion too.  

My interest, I think, is not so much in defining what we (want to) mean by a
complex system buy in exploring the implications of systems consisting of
agents as described earlier. The ability to process symbols seems to me to
make all the difference in the world. 

Physical entities capable of processing symbols seem to me to live it two
worlds: the physical and the symbolic. (The original question was prompted
by the notion that complexity requires that sort of dual worldness. But
that's not my core concern. You can probably get pretty far wrt complexity
in a world that includes switches, where by a switch I mean one energy flow
that controls another, a light switch for example. So systems of multiple
energy flows where one controls another like weather and geology are good
candidates.)

Symbolic processing, including computers, is a step beyond switches. Half a
century ago Newell and Simon defined computers as physical symbol machines.
We and many biological organisms are  physical symbol machines also. I think
that's an important way to look at it.

The thing about physical symbol machines is that the rules of causation they
follow are more complex than those of physics. 

That's enough rambling for now on my cell phone.

On May 28, 2017 6:04 PM, "Stephen Guerin" <stephen.guerin at simtable.com
<mailto:stephen.guerin at simtable.com> > wrote:

Marcos writes;

Depending on which J values are zero, there can one phase space or many
independent phase spaces depending on how many disconnected components there
are.   

I agree with a small tweak.

Yes, the subgraphs would have their own independent phase spaces (especially
if topologies were dissimilar). Though, I would not call the independent
subgraphs components as they are no longer part of a larger whole.  If the
subgraphs are independent and not interacting you cease to have one system.
You have multiple independent systems each with their own phase spaces.

I'll wrap with my position:

*	I gave three examples of non-biological complex systems based on
Russ's initial question
*	Russ's additional criteria later in the thread are similar to
distinguishing criteria for complex living systems vs complex non-living
systems. This is an area of research I'm fascinated with and I encourage
this line of discussion
*	If I need to use Russ's criteria, I can't think of a non-biological
example. To me it's like asking for a non-biological example of a living
system.
*	I disagree with Russ's claim that all complex systems must satisfy
his criteria to be a complex system. It is too limiting.

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