[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

[Steven A Smith]

NST -

This is the kind of richness I trust you to always add to the 
conversation... a different (but similarly useful) splitting of hairs 
about language.   I realize that your broader use of the term "model" is 
fundamental and correct, and that the short-cut use of "model" for 
"mathematical model" has perhaps lead to sloppy thinking.  Or does it 
merely reflect it?   I suspect that many of us here do not have the 
practice or experience in using "model" in this larger sense well.

I suppose that the term "mathematical formalization of a model" might be 
most precise, but I think "mathematical model" is an acceptable 
contraction since I think "formalization" is implicit (redundant) when 
invoking "mathematical" in this sense.

I don't know if your (broader) definition of "model" would be more 
accurate if we prefixed it with "intuitive" or "mental" or even 
"metaphorical" model.

FWIW, when I talk with my daughter who is deeply embedded in the 
biosciences, they regularly use the shorthand of "model" to mean the 
invocation of a fairly formal analogy between one species and another.  
e.g.   "a mouse model of xxx" or "a mosquito model of yyy", indicating 
that they do experimental studies on one species for various reasons 
(practical/ethical) to try to draw conclusions in another species.  I'm 
sure there is a very precise and elaborate practice involved.   I find 
the use of "model" very unnerving, possibly the same feeling you get 
when "simulants" use "model".

Glen claims the title (appellation?) "simulant" which I find apt for 
*many* here who make their living (current or previous) by rendering 
mathematical models into computer simulations.  This task often requires 
thoughtfully choosing or developing the appropriate model TO render into 
code and place in the context of a series of 
experiments-by-simulation.   I am sometimes appalled at the lack of 
rigor brought to this whole process, but often the results are still 
useful for enhanced understanding if not rigorous advancement of the 
scientific domain they are exploring.

I believe that your contribution to the game theoretic model of human 
cooperation/defection known as "the iterated prisoner's dilemma" which 
we know as MOTH (My way Or The Highway) is a perfect example within the 
larger milieu.   I don't know what the higher level "model" the specific 
mathematical formulation we know as "prisoner's dilemma" defers to.

I myself have done a bit of this work but more often have been in a 
support role in trying to help "simulants" and the "modelers" they 
represent to develop more intuitive perspectives or understandings of 
the phenomena in question through a chain of analogical relations from 
the loosest of metaphor to the tightest of formal modeling.

In any case, I appreciate your asking of these questions.

And to your specific question of "is a Hurricane a Complex System", I 
think SG's answer was very good and hopefully helped to disambiguate the 
common use of "Complex System" in this forum.

Carry on,
- SS


On 5/28/17 11:10 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:
>  Nick asks:
>
>     Is a hurricane a “complex system”?
>
>
> It depends. What is your metaphor (model) of a hurricane?
>
> If I wanted to understand how a hurricane forms, I might model 
> dissipative structure formation in the presence of temperature and 
> pressure gradients. I would call this a complex system.
>
> If I needed to add a hurricane track simulation to our Simtable, for 
> the purposes of how my customers would use it for emergency planning, 
> it would probably be enough to model its track as a random walker 
> biased by global winds and a curve parameter to represent the Coriolis 
> effect. I would not call this a complex system.
>
>
>
>
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