[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

[Steven A Smith]

Minor edit to my recent post:

    This is the kind of richness I trust you to always add to the
    conversation... a different (but similarly useful) splitting of
    hairs about languagefrom that which Glen often provides us.


On 5/29/17 4:18 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>
> NST -
>
> This is the kind of richness I trust you to always add to the 
> conversation... a different (but similarly useful) splitting of hairs 
> about language.   I realize that your broader use of the term "model" 
> is fundamental and correct, and that the short-cut use of "model" for 
> "mathematical model" has perhaps lead to sloppy thinking.  Or does it 
> merely reflect it?   I suspect that many of us here do not have the 
> practice or experience in using "model" in this larger sense well.
>
> I suppose that the term "mathematical formalization of a model" might 
> be most precise, but I think "mathematical model" is an acceptable 
> contraction since I think "formalization" is implicit (redundant) when 
> invoking "mathematical" in this sense.
>
> I don't know if your (broader) definition of "model" would be more 
> accurate if we prefixed it with "intuitive" or "mental" or even 
> "metaphorical" model.
>
> FWIW, when I talk with my daughter who is deeply embedded in the 
> biosciences, they regularly use the shorthand of "model" to mean the 
> invocation of a fairly formal analogy between one species and 
> another.  e.g.   "a mouse model of xxx" or "a mosquito model of yyy", 
> indicating that they do experimental studies on one species for 
> various reasons (practical/ethical) to try to draw conclusions in 
> another species.  I'm sure there is a very precise and elaborate 
> practice involved.   I find the use of "model" very unnerving, 
> possibly the same feeling you get when "simulants" use "model".
>
> Glen claims the title (appellation?) "simulant" which I find apt for 
> *many* here who make their living (current or previous) by rendering 
> mathematical models into computer simulations.  This task often 
> requires thoughtfully choosing or developing the appropriate model TO 
> render into code and place in the context of a series of 
> experiments-by-simulation.   I am sometimes appalled at the lack of 
> rigor brought to this whole process, but often the results are still 
> useful for enhanced understanding if not rigorous advancement of the 
> scientific domain they are exploring.
>
> I believe that your contribution to the game theoretic model of human 
> cooperation/defection known as "the iterated prisoner's dilemma" which 
> we know as MOTH (My way Or The Highway) is a perfect example within 
> the larger milieu.   I don't know what the higher level "model" the 
> specific mathematical formulation we know as "prisoner's dilemma" 
> defers to.
>
> I myself have done a bit of this work but more often have been in a 
> support role in trying to help "simulants" and the "modelers" they 
> represent to develop more intuitive perspectives or understandings of 
> the phenomena in question through a chain of analogical relations from 
> the loosest of metaphor to the tightest of formal modeling.
>
> In any case, I appreciate your asking of these questions.
>
> And to your specific question of "is a Hurricane a Complex System", I 
> think SG's answer was very good and hopefully helped to disambiguate 
> the common use of "Complex System" in this forum.
>
> Carry on,
> - SS
>
>
> On 5/28/17 11:10 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:
>>  Nick asks:
>>
>>     Is a hurricane a “complex system”?
>>
>>
>> It depends. What is your metaphor (model) of a hurricane?
>>
>> If I wanted to understand how a hurricane forms, I might model 
>> dissipative structure formation in the presence of temperature and 
>> pressure gradients. I would call this a complex system.
>>
>> If I needed to add a hurricane track simulation to our Simtable, for 
>> the purposes of how my customers would use it for emergency planning, 
>> it would probably be enough to model its track as a random walker 
>> biased by global winds and a curve parameter to represent the 
>> Coriolis effect. I would not call this a complex system.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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