[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

Mon May 29 10:28:27 EDT 2017

Hurricanes are an instances of multiscale fluid dynamics, or set of problems (cyclogenesis, heat engine, cyclolysis).   They are all complicated coupled systems, but it is not clear to me what extra insight is gained by calling them complex systems.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 10:07 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

Again, apologies for getting into this discussion so tardily?

Is a hurricane a "complex system"?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 11:37 PM
To: Russ.Abbott at gmail.com<mailto:Russ.Abbott at gmail.com>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

Russ -

I think your message got lost in the "uncanny valley"... the conversation has been so rich that this contribution (by the instigating author of the thread) did get lost to it's relative obviousness.   I know *I* read through it and nodded my head but instead felt compelled to respond to SG's post which *was* (I think) in response to this.

I have suggested a new thread and this type of question (dual-worldness) would probably be central to it.   I do hope others weigh in.

- Steve

On 5/28/17 1:58 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
I'm wondering whether the message below got lost. Our did no one think it worth mentioning?

On May 28, 2017 6:35 PM, "Russ Abbott" <russ.abbott at gmail.com<mailto:russ.abbott at gmail.com>> wrote:
Greetings from Jerusalem! Quite an amazing city. Never been here before. Quite an amazing discussion too.

My interest, I think, is not so much in defining what we (want to) mean by a complex system buy in exploring the implications of systems consisting of agents as described earlier. The ability to process symbols seems to me to make all the difference in the world.

Physical entities capable of processing symbols seem to me to live it two worlds: the physical and the symbolic. (The original question was prompted by the notion that complexity requires that sort of dual worldness. But that's not my core concern. You can probably get pretty far wrt complexity in a world that includes switches, where by a switch I mean one energy flow that controls another, a light switch for example. So systems of multiple energy flows where one controls another like weather and geology are good candidates.)

Symbolic processing, including computers, is a step beyond switches. Half a century ago Newell and Simon defined computers as physical symbol machines. We and many biological organisms are  physical symbol machines also. I think that's an important way to look at it.

The thing about physical symbol machines is that the rules of causation they follow are more complex than those of physics.

That's enough rambling for now on my cell phone.

On May 28, 2017 6:04 PM, "Stephen Guerin" <stephen.guerin at simtable.com<mailto:stephen.guerin at simtable.com>> wrote:
Marcos writes;
Depending on which J values are zero, there can one phase space or many independent phase spaces depending on how many disconnected components there are.

I agree with a small tweak.

Yes, the subgraphs would have their own independent phase spaces (especially if topologies were dissimilar). Though, I would not call the independent subgraphs components as they are no longer part of a larger whole.  If the subgraphs are independent and not interacting you cease to have one system. You have multiple independent systems each with their own phase spaces.

I'll wrap with my position:

  *   I gave three examples of non-biological complex systems based on Russ's initial question
  *   Russ's additional criteria later in the thread are similar to distinguishing criteria for complex living systems vs complex non-living systems. This is an area of research I'm fascinated with and I encourage this line of discussion
  *   If I need to use Russ's criteria, I can't think of a non-biological example. To me it's like asking for a non-biological example of a living system.
  *   I disagree with Russ's claim that all complex systems must satisfy his criteria to be a complex system. It is too limiting.

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