[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

Mon May 29 10:44:53 EDT 2017

Hurricanes are interesting because they are naturally occurring dissipative
systems.

On May 29, 2017 5:28 PM, "Marcus Daniels" <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> Hurricanes are an instances of multiscale fluid dynamics, or set of
> problems (cyclogenesis, heat engine, cyclolysis).   They are all
> complicated coupled systems, but it is not clear to me what extra insight
> is gained by calling them complex systems.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Nick
> Thompson
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 28, 2017 10:07 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?
>
>
>
> Again, apologies for getting into this discussion so tardily?
>
>
>
> Is a hurricane a “complex system”?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <friam-bounces at redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Steven A Smith
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 28, 2017 11:37 PM
> *To:* Russ.Abbott at gmail.com; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
> Group <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?
>
>
>
> Russ -
>
> I think your message got lost in the "uncanny valley"... the conversation
> has been so rich that this contribution (by the instigating author of the
> thread) did get lost to it's relative obviousness.   I know *I* read
> through it and nodded my head but instead felt compelled to respond to SG's
> post which *was* (I think) in response to this.
>
> I have suggested a new thread and this type of question (dual-worldness)
> would probably be central to it.   I do hope others weigh in.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> On 5/28/17 1:58 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>
> I'm wondering whether the message below got lost. Our did no one think it
> worth mentioning?
>
>
>
> On May 28, 2017 6:35 PM, "Russ Abbott" <russ.abbott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Greetings from Jerusalem! Quite an amazing city. Never been here before.
> Quite an amazing discussion too.
>
>
>
> My interest, I think, is not so much in defining what we (want to) mean by
> a complex system buy in exploring the implications of systems consisting of
> agents as described earlier. The ability to process symbols seems to me to
> make all the difference in the world.
>
>
>
> Physical entities capable of processing symbols seem to me to live it two
> worlds: the physical and the symbolic. (The original question was prompted
> by the notion that complexity requires that sort of dual worldness. But
> that's not my core concern. You can probably get pretty far wrt complexity
> in a world that includes switches, where by a switch I mean one energy flow
> that controls another, a light switch for example. So systems of multiple
> energy flows where one controls another like weather and geology are good
> candidates.)
>
>
>
> Symbolic processing, including computers, is a step beyond switches. Half
> a century ago Newell and Simon defined computers as physical symbol
> machines. We and many biological organisms are  physical symbol machines
> also. I think that's an important way to look at it.
>
>
>
> The thing about physical symbol machines is that the rules of causation
> they follow are more complex than those of physics.
>
>
>
> That's enough rambling for now on my cell phone.
>
>
>
> On May 28, 2017 6:04 PM, "Stephen Guerin" <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
> wrote:
>
> Marcos writes;
>
> Depending on which J values are zero, there can one phase space or many
> independent phase spaces depending on how many disconnected components
> there are.
>
>
>
> I agree with a small tweak.
>
>
>
> Yes, the subgraphs would have their own independent phase spaces
> (especially if topologies were dissimilar). Though, I would not call the
> independent subgraphs components as they are no longer part of a larger
> whole.  If the subgraphs are independent and not interacting you cease to
> have one system. You have multiple independent systems each with their own
> phase spaces.
>
>
>
> I'll wrap with my position:
>
>    - I gave three examples of non-biological complex systems based on
>    Russ's initial question
>    - Russ's additional criteria later in the thread are similar to
>    distinguishing criteria for complex living systems vs complex non-living
>    systems. This is an area of research I'm fascinated with and I encourage
>    this line of discussion
>    - If I need to use Russ's criteria, I can't think of a non-biological
>    example. To me it's like asking for a non-biological example of a living
>    system.
>    - I disagree with Russ's claim that all complex systems must satisfy
>    his criteria to be a complex system. It is too limiting.
>
>
>
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