[FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

[Prof David West]

Hi Nick,

I don't recall saying trees feel no pain. I just said that movement was a poor indicator of the ability to feel pain  or the potential ability to feel pain.

For a host of reasons I would agree with you that neither trees nor humans "feel pain." That which we label pain (some kind of physiological stimulus-response) simply is. The label and the verb-label dyad are delusional overlays.

davew

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> So, David, 
> 
> A tree, when assaulted by caterpillars, alters its physiology to produce 
> toxins (at cost to its growth) and puts out chemicals to alert 
> neighboring trees which do the same.  
> 
> On what basis exactly do you assert that trees don't feel pain.  
> 
> I stipulate that this question is asked by a person who doesn't think 
> humans "feel pain".  There aren’t two steps, pain and the feeling of it.   
> 
> Nick 
> 
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 2:28 PM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?
> 
> 
> Weighing yourself everyday is actually an excellent way to promote 
> weight loss. So too frequent, even hourly, measures of heart rate, 
> glucose level, etc. Not because you do something in reaction to the 
> measure, simply because it causes a kind of Hawthorne Effect, that 
> forces you to intentionally  take, or refrain from taking, some kind of 
> action - like eating that sixth doughnut.
> 
> I am watching plants move outside of my window. I doubt the plants are 
> feeling pain, nor are they reacting to/ avoiding pain. True, most people 
> don't eat pines, cedars, and manzanitas, and food plants, e.g. a potato, 
> don't move much. But still, movement, even as an indicator or potential 
> for feeling pain, seems less than useful.
> 
> Besides, pain is good: 1) "no pain, no gain;" 2) self-flagellation to 
> bring oneself closer to God; or 3) "Pain is instructive." Baron von 
> Masoch
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, at 8:00 AM, ∄ uǝʃƃ wrote:
> > Not at all.  One can over-intervene with respect to any ongoing dynamic. 
> > For example, some people concerned about their weight will step on a 
> > scale every day and, based on what they see, either modify their diet 
> > for the day or perhaps simply feel one way or another (good or bad).
> > But such instantaneous measures are largely useless for health and 
> > fitness.  It's the trends that matter.  And any intervention should be 
> > done based on the trends and maintained for quite awhile before their 
> > effects can be understood.
> > 
> > On 09/14/2018 04:57 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > > Out of curiosity, does over-intervention concern apply to government behavior only?   One could imagine the same technology trends empower many groups and individuals.
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > ∄ uǝʃƃ
> > 
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