[FRIAM] do animals psychologize?

Wed Sep 19 14:04:38 EDT 2018

Dear Nick,

In the vein of  "speak truth to power":

I have demonstrated my private access to my own mind but pointing out that
you can't tell me what I am thinking.  You didn't respond, as I recall.

Introspection exists.  I have read what you wrote carefully.

On a less serious note, your beard plan is interesting.  Have you wondered
if you're inspired by Freud?  He believed in introspection.

Frank

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:26 AM Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Dear Glen,
>
>
>
> I don’t think you comments below (see larding) take adequate account of
> the arguments found in my *Many Perils of Ejective Anthropomorphism
> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311349078_The_many_perils_of_ejective_anthropomorphism>,
> *where I try to understand what people mean by introspection and
> ultimately conclude that the whole idea is incoherent.  All perception is
> “other-perception” by definition.  This truism applies equally to organisms
> and computers:
>
>
>
>
>
> And
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And here, only a few days ago, we were blood brothers.
>
>
>
> (};-)]
>
>
>
> By the way.  I am thinking of growing a beard.  It would look like:
> (};-)]> .  What do you think?  It makes my face look longer.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of ? u???
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 12:08 PM
> To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?
>
>
>
> So, I think I've landed on my opinion.  And I seriously hope it wasn't, in
> any part, because of The Happening. 8^)
>
>
>
> If psychologizing is the inference to a partly unobservable, yet
> introspectable, internal state of another organism, then it requires the
> (≥2) organisms to have these features:
>
> *[NST==>I cannot grasp what is meant by “partly unobservable”  All
> observations are partial in the sense that we cannot see all sides of a
> thing at once.  Also, I cannot make any sense of the term “internal” except
> by reference to the aforementioned concept of “unobservability”.  <==nst] *
>
>
>
> 1) a systemic state like that glutamate/calcium messaging system that
> produces a (partly) observable behavior,
>
>
>
> 2) a self-perceptive structure that responds to that systemic state, and*[NST==>It’s
> not “self-perceptive” by definition.  See text above.  <==nst] *
>
>
>
> 3) an other-perceptive structure capable of perceiving others' behaviors
> and inferring/mapping to their own internal states.
>
>
>
> It seems fairly clear that organisms with a CNS have (1) and (2).  And the
> memory and messaging in the 2 articles cited for plants demonstrate that at
> least some plants have (1).  And it seems fairly obvious that the more
> complex animals have (3) [†].  So, it makes the most sense to suggest that
> complex animals psychologize.  Where to draw the line is an issue, of
> course.  I doubt anyone would suggest that protozoa have (3), however
> powerful their (2) is with their dual nuclei or whatnot.  But I don't think
> we have much evidence that plants have (2). I'd be happy to be proven
> wrong. [‡]
>
>
>
> It's also important to note that the inferences made in (3) need not be
> accurate.  The phrase "mind reading" goes beyond what I think is implied by
> "psychologizing" by requiring the inferred state be somewhat similar to the
> other organism's internal state.  So, my cat may well infer that I'm
> tossing that hackey sack around for the same reasons she tosses her mouse
> toy around.  And she may be completely wrong about that.  But she's still
> psychologizing.
>
>
>
> [†] Humans and their ilk have many higher order self-measuring systems
> with at least 2 very abstracted "executives" in the head and gut ...
> systems measuring systems measuring systems, etc. But all that (I think) is
> required here is at least 1 higher order derivative, a plexus that observes
> the 0th order systemic state directly.
>
>
>
> [‡] I can't help but wonder about distributed organisms like aspen groves
> or mycelia networks and their inter-species cooperation.  I also can't help
> but wonder how superorganisms might satisfy (1-3).
>
>
>
> On 09/18/2018 01:32 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Happening_(2008_film)
>
>
>
> --
>
> ∄ uǝʃƃ
>
>
>
> ============================================================
>
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>
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-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
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