[FRIAM] capitalism vs. individualism

Mon Nov 11 07:20:07 EST 2019

Schiff IS acting like a prosecutor.

Unfortunately, in this day and age prosecution and defense in the criminal system has nothing to do with truth or with justice. Prosecutors, in general, and almost universally, do their best to paint the defendant as 100% evil with no mitigating circumstances; as the defense tries to paint the defendant as an angel with nothing but minor and excusable faults. Black and White - no middle ground.

Schiff is acting like exactly that kind of prosecutor — he is not laying out the case, he is, substantially, making it up.

Moreover, presenting the case just might take into consideration little things like:

1. However accurate the interpretation of "do me a favor" might be, it does not fit the definition of a "crime" as laid out in Federal Law.

2. The impeachment clause as written and passed by the Continental Congress ended in four words, "against the United States." The "Style Committee," without permission, omitted those four words from the printed document. If extant they would make anything said or done in the Ukraine not subject to impeachment.

3. Plausible motive: is not to weaken a potential political rival, but a tantrum of a three year old being punished by his mother and pointing at his sister and saying she's bad too.

Lest it sound like I am defending Trump — I am not.

I find myself becoming increasingly petulant and angry, in all sorts of areas, not just politics, with people who are so absolutely certain that their interpretation of a complex data set is the ONE AND ONLY TRUTH. I believe, not know — not even think, but believe that such people are dangerous — to the body politic and to individuals. It matters not if the TRUTH originates from the "left" or "right" — "Science" or "God" the conviction of TRUTH leads, almost inexorably, to violence and/or tyranny.

Please excuse the raised voice.

davew

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, at 6:05 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Dave, 
> 
> Funny.  I don't read Schiff that way.  I don't watch any TV, and get 
> all my news from text or podcasts, so I may be missing a lot of 
> nonverbals.  But I thought his "It's not OK that ..." speech of a year 
> or so back was terrific. I read him as a prosecutor.  His job is to 
> present the case.
> 
> I do agree about A.O.C.  But she was playing a different role.  What 
> was splendid about her questioning was the disciplined manner in which 
> she stayed within the bounds of the role she was playing.  She let the 
> case present itself.  
> 
> Nick 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:00 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] capitalism vs. individualism
> 
> Glen,
> 
> Your "larger point is that communities are 
> > responsible for policing themselves. Everyone should *welcome* 
> > challenges to their narrative. So, Obama should have welcomed 
> > impeachment inquiries into his actions. Trump should welcome the 
> > impeachment inquiry *and* that into Russian interference. All rational 
> > people should welcome challenges to their words and actions."
> 
> is dead on, with a minor caveat: ... rational people should welcome 
> rational challenges ...
> 
> What Schiff, and the 500-1000 people I am including in "They" is not 
> rational - it is emotional and ego-driven.
> 
> Based on her questioning of several Trump admin witnesses, 
> Ocasio-Cortez should be leading the impeachment effort  - quiet, 
> informed, questions that clearly demonstrate the errors of the other 
> side — rational challenges absent all the ad hominen rhetoric. It would 
> quickly be obvious to the majority of the population why Trump should 
> be removed. And, in the short run, it would give the Republicans the 
> grounds for actually supporting impeachment and convicting — something 
> that will never happen with  the toxic-partisan Schiff-led efforts.
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2019, at 3:49 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote:
> > While I agree that your *narrative* is plausible, I'm always skeptical 
> > of such narratives. The system is more complex than these stories we 
> > tell ourselves. I didn't confidently support impeachment until Trump 
> > released his readout of the Ukraine call. And most of my more 
> > conservative friends didn't support impeachment until the 
> > whistleblower came forward. Those who've been shouting for Trump's 
> > impeachment for years were not in control of the process.
> > 
> > More importantly, I think Obama should have been impeached, as well. 
> > To me, his drone strikes were very close to crimes against humanity ...
> > but, of course, crimes against humanity may not be crimes against our 
> > country... I don't know. But the larger point is that communities are 
> > responsible for policing themselves. Everyone should *welcome* 
> > challenges to their narrative. So, Obama should have welcomed 
> > impeachment inquiries into his actions. Trump should welcome the 
> > impeachment inquiry *and* that into Russian interference. All rational 
> > people should welcome challenges to their words and actions.
> > 
> > Think of impeachment like your friend telling you there's spinach in your teeth.
> > 
> > On 11/9/19 12:05 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> > > "They" is a very small number of individuals who directly control/influence the existing impeachment effort — Schiff and 50+ percent of House Members, Hillary and her closest cohort, a finite number of columnists, pundits, and commentators.
> > > 
> > > In my opinion, both the Clinton and the Trump impeachment efforts were not motivated by, and did not actualize, a very necessary system of checks and balances. Both were motivated by personal and partisan animosity.
> > > 
> > > And, in the case of Trump, motivated by deeply bruised egos.
> > > 
> > > "They" cannot believe that 49% of the electorate and most of the  populace outside of the northeast, west coast, and enclaves like Santa Fe, could possibly disagree with them. Therefore, Trump supporters are certifiably: racists, deplorables, and/or uneducated fools. And Trump has to be illegitimate, and must be removed from office for no other reason than he is a symbol of "Their" failures.
> > > 
> > > Impeachment is the wrong tool, wielded by the wrong people, for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time.
> > > 
> > > Its inevitable failure will almost guarantee "four more years" and, far more importantly, devalue an essential check & balance tool to the point that future Houses will shy from its use and open the door to "really bad things."
> > > 
> > > There are so many other ways that the country could have been 
> > > protected from Trump and his re-election made impossible. But those 
> > > alternatives would require reason, effort, and, most importantly for 
> > > "They," some "agonizing reappraisal." (Mao)
> > > 
> > 
> > 
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