[FRIAM] capitalism vs. individualism

[Marcus Daniels]

Eric writes:

< If you believe there is still some chance that competent and smart people can make a difference, you are not a nihilist. >

It depends on what is meant by difference.  A moral nihilist can pose the question “What kind of world do you want to live in?”   There can be indirect and non-obvious consequences of preferences, and those are worth talking about to a moral nihilist.    That said, it is also just fine if those consequences include cruelty provided that consequence was anticipated and controlled-for.    Does the target of the cruelty have goals contrary to the goals of my group, and does employing cruelty weaken or strengthen the opponent on a horizon I care about?   Perhaps for some (Putin?) sadism is part of the fun.  It’s just about risks and rewards.

Marcus

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Eric Charles <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Date: Friday, November 15, 2019 at 3:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] capitalism vs. individualism

" A nihilist might adopt a campaign slogan like Any Functioning Adult 2020, because the truly objectionable things are incompetence and stupidity. "

But there's the rub in this conversation. "Any Functioning Adult 2020" could be intended as a joke, pointing out that the current president is so incompetent that literally any functional adult would be better. OR, it could be a low-level nihilistic joke, made by someone who knows full well there are no functional adults in the race, and even if there were that person wouldn't be elected, and we are all going to die meaningless deaths no matter who wins. (I imagine that is what it sounds like translated into Russian, based on my deep love of Dostoevsky). BUT, neither of those positions is a relativist.

The relativist asserts that competence-incompetence and stupid-smart have no tangible meaning.

Who is competent and who isn't? Eh, it depends on your point of view, and no point of view is better than another. The designation of "competence" is a colonialist activity providing illusory justification for the marginalization already oppressed groups, and while it has a valence, it has no basis in "reality" (i.e., it is bad, you should stop doing it, and you should deeply hate yourself for ever having had done it). To label the president as incompetent is to inappropriately invalidate his way of being in the world; ways of being are all equally valid.

Who is stupid and who isn't? Eh, it depends on your point of view, and no point of view is better than another.....

If you believe that SOME people ARE competent and/or smart, then you can't be a relativist. If you believe there is still some chance that competent and smart people can make a difference, you are not a nihilist.

Old Soviet Joke: A man walks into a shop and asks, "You wouldn't happen to have any fish, would you?". The shop assistant replies, "You've got it wrong – ours is a butcher's shop. We don't have any meat. You're looking for the fish shop across the road. There they don't have any fish!"



-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist
American University - Adjunct Instructor


On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 12:13 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Nick writes:

< What I see in much relativism is not fallibilism, which I endorse, but nihilistic fatalism**, which I deplore.  I am not sure I can argue either  for my endorsement OR my condemnation, but them’s my values.  Nihilistic fatalism is endorsed opportunistically by people like Putin because, while they themselves are planning for the “inevitable” collapse, they are arguing that there is no future in planning.  >

IThere can be goals without ideology.  I think a nihilist would also have to agree there is also no harm in one value system stomping on another value system since they are both just value systems and so impoverished and arbitrary.    In that spirit, a progressive can be a nihilist simply to collect a partial ordering of different kinds of premises that serve one defined purpose or another, without taking those purposes too seriously.   A nihilist might adopt a campaign slogan like Any Functioning Adult 2020, because the truly objectionable things are incompetence and stupidity.

Marcus
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20191115/a1376485/attachment.html>