[FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?

Wed Dec 30 12:17:15 EST 2020

I'm sorry, Marcus.  Define "clear thinking."

On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 11:22 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
wrote:

> I have heard scientists say, when confronted with certain experimental
> evidence, that don’t believe the evidence.   It’s not just because they are
> arrogant, it is because they have experience with other evidence and
> highly-scrutinized models derived from that evidence – that there has to be
> another explanation.    (One recent example that comes to mind is the
> Q-thruster / EmDrive.)  It seems to me it ought to be possible to decouple
> clear thinking from how organizations work, and from personality.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2020 8:24 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?
>
>
>
> Wow, Karl is my guy, but I didn't know about this.  Thank you Stephen.
>
>
>
> To get to Nick's problem, we are at point in the history of our species on
> this planet where I think we must pay attention to the adjacent possible
> "truth" of an ecozoic vision (Thomas Berry) that involves an inter-species
> future.  Someone recently said  "science is a glass half filled" and that's
> because as practiced by most, science has become a system of thought closed
> to any but its own "truth."  Doesn't the best science embrace methods that
> consider all assumptions and facts to be open to question?  The division
> between what is "real" from what is "belief"  cancels out the possibility
> of what emerges that is beyond the grasp of modern science.
>
>
>
> Einstein famously said "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
>  The imaginary story is missing in science, colonized by a mind-set and
> methodology that demands proof of "existence."  Physicist David Bohm, the
> godfather of the generative dialogue we teach and practice, understood this
> when he wrote that discussion (and by extension experimentation--not lived
> experience) uses only rational intelligence, while a full investigation of
> wicked problems demands additional perspectives perceived through our
> senses, emotions, self-awareness, and intuition.  There is more than one
> Truth to be discovered, dear Nick, and that ain't bat-shit.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.guerin at simtable.com> wrote:
>
> Nick writes:
> >  But some assertions are bat-shit crazy, and provably so
>
>
>
> Knowing some of the background where Merle is coming from: Rights of
> Nature, Ecocide Law, etc
> <https://medium.com/@pella.thiel/time-for-a-universal-declaration-on-the-rights-of-nature-ad97263a39f4>,
> it just may be our current Economic and Scientific paradigms
> (Evolution/Competition/Captalism) in Science are literally driving us
> batshit crazy.
>
> Provably batshit crazy.
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano_Islands_Act
>
> BTW, I got to the Guano_islands_Act starting from a google search of
> "metabolic sovereignty" *  as I thought it might get at Merle's idea
> scientificially.
>
>
> This quickly got me to Marx's metabolic Rift
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_rift> from which the Guano
> Islands Act popped up.
>
> -Stephen
>
> * I'm supposed to be writing a paper today that has something to do with
> self-sovereign identity in decentralized systems which is why sovereignty
> is on my mind.
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Stephen.Guerin at Simtable.com <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
>
> CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
>
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
>
> twitter: @simtable
>
> z <http://zoom.com/j/5055775828>oom.simtable.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:39 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think I disagree, Merle.  If we lose faith that there is a truth to be
> found concerning the matters of which we speak *as scientists*, we lose
> everything. When we speak as  poets, etc., of course, we relax that
> constraint.  But what defines science for me is that there are truths to be
> found.  I am pretty sure Glen also disagrees with me, and DaveW and maybe
> Kim, so you are in good company.   If anything characterizes the assault on
> society of the last 4 years, it is the undermining of faith in the notion
> of convergent inquiry.  The first domino to fall was anthropology, in the
> sixties, which led to a mayhem of political correctness and purges that
> destroyed the field.  Sure we have to respect people equally.  Sure we have
> to treat their metaphysical non-sense on a par with our own.  But some
> assertions are bat-shit crazy, and provably so, and if you entertain the
> notion that all assertions are equally true, you might just as well drink
> the kool-aid and climb the  ramp into the space ship, so far as I am
> concerned.   I will wave you a sad good bye because we everybody’s
> shoulders to the truth-wheel if we are to survive.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2020 1:15 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?
>
>
>
> "True" things about the world beyond the reach of science must be included
> in the expanding dialogue, like a mountain that is also an earth being, or
> forest animals that are spirit masters of their worlds. We can think of
> them as other-than-humans, but they "exist" in indigenous cultures.  They
> are only "beliefs" in ours,  but for those of us who are "Animists", they
> are always present in the dialogue.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 9:40 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, I'm once again down in a rabbit hole over whether Dave's (cautiously
> backed by Kim) idea of a "science of the mind" is reasonable, wherein
> subjective/reflective techniques like psychedelic drugs or meditation can
> say "true" things about the world, particularly that may be beyond the
> reach of science. And there I am reading about Falun Gong <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong> and its "outlets" like The
> Epoch Times, which spew constant nonsense, feeding the delusional QAnon
> narratives:
>
>
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-newest-trump-boosted-viral-maga-star-has-ties-to-the-epoch-times
>
> And I'm wondering, where are the "patriot hackers" and Anonymous?
>
> What happened to all that rigmarole about protecting the world and the
> internet from insidious sh¡t like The Epoch Times? Is it that ostensibly
> white hat members are combating shallow techniques like DDoS so well that
> the script kiddies who used to claim to be Anonymous are outmatched? Maybe
> Assange siding with Trump fractured the group? And what about the Jester <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jester_(hacktivist)>, who was arguably
> more capable than the large majority of hacktivists? Was he hired by the
> NSA and now works alone in a steel cage? Or has his mind been infected by
> the attractive conspiracy theories and persecution complexes we dorks are
> so susceptible to?
>
> I feel confident that some of you have some insight! Please share.
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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> --
>
> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
> emergentdiplomacy.org
>
> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>
>
> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
> skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
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>
> --
>
> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
> emergentdiplomacy.org
>
> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>
>
> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
> skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
>
> twitter: @merle110
>
>
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-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @merle110
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