[FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?

[Marcus Daniels]

There are situations in which one may take a provisional hypothesis and then run down the logical consequences that should occur as a result.    This can be done recursively to form a tenuous path from observables to outcomes.   These are imaginary stories.   Some of them are elaborate, like string theory.   That’s fine for a detective or a scientist provided they recognize the path is tenuous and can be made stronger or weaker with specific information.   For the detective it may be useful to do this fast and loose reasoning in order to get a search warrant – to get more evidence.  It’s not fine if they don’t seek to get evidence or quantify just how tenuous the path is, or at least recognize what they have is an arbitrary belief (or an elegant theoretical framework).   Conversely, if one has quantified how probable a chain of reasoning is, in light of the evidence, if someone else comes along and says they have another way to interpret the evidence, then they can do the work to argue each link in the chain and how likely their overall conclusion is.

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 9:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?

I'm sorry, Marcus.  Define "clear thinking."

On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 11:22 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I have heard scientists say, when confronted with certain experimental evidence, that don’t believe the evidence.   It’s not just because they are arrogant, it is because they have experience with other evidence and highly-scrutinized models derived from that evidence – that there has to be another explanation.    (One recent example that comes to mind is the Q-thruster / EmDrive.)  It seems to me it ought to be possible to decouple clear thinking from how organizations work, and from personality.

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 8:24 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?

Wow, Karl is my guy, but I didn't know about this.  Thank you Stephen.

To get to Nick's problem, we are at point in the history of our species on this planet where I think we must pay attention to the adjacent possible "truth" of an ecozoic vision (Thomas Berry) that involves an inter-species future.  Someone recently said  "science is a glass half filled" and that's because as practiced by most, science has become a system of thought closed to any but its own "truth."  Doesn't the best science embrace methods that consider all assumptions and facts to be open to question?  The division between what is "real" from what is "belief"  cancels out the possibility of what emerges that is beyond the grasp of modern science.

Einstein famously said "Imagination is more important than knowledge."  The imaginary story is missing in science, colonized by a mind-set and methodology that demands proof of "existence."  Physicist David Bohm, the godfather of the generative dialogue we teach and practice, understood this when he wrote that discussion (and by extension experimentation--not lived experience) uses only rational intelligence, while a full investigation of wicked problems demands additional perspectives perceived through our senses, emotions, self-awareness, and intuition.  There is more than one Truth to be discovered, dear Nick, and that ain't bat-shit.






On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at simtable.com<mailto:stephen.guerin at simtable.com>> wrote:
Nick writes:
>  But some assertions are bat-shit crazy, and provably so

Knowing some of the background where Merle is coming from: Rights of Nature, Ecocide Law, etc<https://medium.com/@pella.thiel/time-for-a-universal-declaration-on-the-rights-of-nature-ad97263a39f4>, it just may be our current Economic and Scientific paradigms (Evolution/Competition/Captalism) in Science are literally driving us batshit crazy.

Provably batshit crazy.
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano_Islands_Act

BTW, I got to the Guano_islands_Act starting from a google search of "metabolic sovereignty" *  as I thought it might get at Merle's idea scientificially.

This quickly got me to Marx's metabolic Rift<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_rift> from which the Guano Islands Act popped up.

-Stephen

* I'm supposed to be writing a paper today that has something to do with self-sovereign identity in decentralized systems which is why sovereignty is on my mind.
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On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:39 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
I think I disagree, Merle.  If we lose faith that there is a truth to be found concerning the matters of which we speak as scientists, we lose everything. When we speak as  poets, etc., of course, we relax that constraint.  But what defines science for me is that there are truths to be found.  I am pretty sure Glen also disagrees with me, and DaveW and maybe Kim, so you are in good company.   If anything characterizes the assault on society of the last 4 years, it is the undermining of faith in the notion of convergent inquiry.  The first domino to fall was anthropology, in the sixties, which led to a mayhem of political correctness and purges that destroyed the field.  Sure we have to respect people equally.  Sure we have to treat their metaphysical non-sense on a par with our own.  But some assertions are bat-shit crazy, and provably so, and if you entertain the notion that all assertions are equally true, you might just as well drink the kool-aid and climb the  ramp into the space ship, so far as I am concerned.   I will wave you a sad good bye because we everybody’s shoulders to the truth-wheel if we are to survive.

Nick



Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/


From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 1:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?

"True" things about the world beyond the reach of science must be included in the expanding dialogue, like a mountain that is also an earth being, or forest animals that are spirit masters of their worlds. We can think of them as other-than-humans, but they "exist" in indigenous cultures.  They are only "beliefs" in ours,  but for those of us who are "Animists", they are always present in the dialogue.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 9:40 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <gepropella at gmail.com<mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
So, I'm once again down in a rabbit hole over whether Dave's (cautiously backed by Kim) idea of a "science of the mind" is reasonable, wherein subjective/reflective techniques like psychedelic drugs or meditation can say "true" things about the world, particularly that may be beyond the reach of science. And there I am reading about Falun Gong <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong> and its "outlets" like The Epoch Times, which spew constant nonsense, feeding the delusional QAnon narratives:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-newest-trump-boosted-viral-maga-star-has-ties-to-the-epoch-times

And I'm wondering, where are the "patriot hackers" and Anonymous?

What happened to all that rigmarole about protecting the world and the internet from insidious sh¡t like The Epoch Times? Is it that ostensibly white hat members are combating shallow techniques like DDoS so well that the script kiddies who used to claim to be Anonymous are outmatched? Maybe Assange siding with Trump fractured the group? And what about the Jester <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jester_(hacktivist)>, who was arguably more capable than the large majority of hacktivists? Was he hired by the NSA and now works alone in a steel cage? Or has his mind been infected by the attractive conspiracy theories and persecution complexes we dorks are so susceptible to?

I feel confident that some of you have some insight! Please share.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org<http://emergentdiplomacy.org>
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @merle110

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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org<http://emergentdiplomacy.org>
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @merle110

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