[FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed

[Sarbajit Roy]

Gary

Actually I agree with you to a considerable extent.

Let us consider Edward's book, On Amazon-India his book (the 7th edn) is
available to us at a Kindle price of approx $9.50. Amazon sells the same
Kindle book in China at $45 and at $155+ for Kindle in the USA.

What does this suggest to you ? For me it's that the authors are not making
the profits - Jeff Bezos &Co. do

Now to come back to the question of why prices in India are affordable,
it's because we have (had ?) a few activist judges who ensured that India's
constitutional status as a *socialist* state means the needs of the many
(parasites ?) takes priority over the profits of the producers (creators).

The prices of most life-saving *quality* drugs in India are probably 1/20th
of what you would pay in the States. That's because the same court enforced
our nation's sovereign rights under TRIPS/CUTS/WTO agreements etc . When I
read about poor people in USA not being able to afford their next insulin
shot because it's so darn expensive, you may like to know that a 30 shot
insulin Flexpen costs about $5 while the same manufacturer sells the
identical pen for 20 times the price in New York.

Sarbajit

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 6:09 AM Gary Schiltz <gary at naturesvisualarts.com>
wrote:

> No offense to the government of your country, but just because its courts
> have judged it to be legal, doesn't make it right. Of course "right" is a
> subjective, moral concept, and I hasten to add that morality is relative
> and personal. Additionally, I don't know how subject other countries are to
> the pronouncements of a particular country's judgments. I'll leave that to
> the United Nations. But in the case of copyrights, my own view of what is
> right is that the availability for copying of material should ideally be in
> the hands of the author. My two cents worth.
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 7:11 PM Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I got your book from here
>>
>> https://www.pdfdrive.com/interactive-computer-graphics-a-top-down-approach-with-webgl-edward-angel-and-dave-d38281420.html
>>
>> The Indian judgment is clear, Reproduction is limited to a copy which the
>> teacher/institute has LEGALLY purchased.
>>
>> There are other judgments from the same court directing that thousands of
>> infringing movie piracy websites (and their whack-a-mole clones) are
>> blocked in India for copyright violation and harm caused to producers.
>>
>> https://globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Utv_Software_Communication_Ltd._..._vs_1337X.To_And_Ors_on_10_April_2019-1.pdf
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 5:17 AM Edward Angel <angel at cs.unm.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks but the story is more complex.
>>>
>>> What transpired is in retrospect somewhat amusing. I received an email
>>> from someone at a university that was using the book asking if I knew there
>>> was a ps file on the web of the whole book. I checked it out, contacted the
>>> instructor who had it taken down. I had no idea how anyone had obtained a
>>> perfect copy of the book. Even during copyediting, I never was given access
>>> to a final ps version with even the typesetting marks. My editor started a
>>> big investigation at Pearson to see who had violated security during
>>> production only to find out after weeks that the people at Pearson who
>>> dealt with accessibility issues were sending out the file to every school
>>> that adopted the book (at the time around 200 just in the US).
>>>
>>> What is odd to me is that the last time I checked libgen.io, which was
>>> a while ago, the version there was not a ps version put a pdf in which you
>>> could use the TOC interactively so I figured it was the kindle version
>>> which my editor, who had become somewhat expert at this, showed me how easy
>>> it is to get the kindle version. Apparently what is the the situation now
>>> is that the ps version is libgen.is so someone else must have uploaded
>>> it.
>>>
>>> The material on the Indian decision on respect to fair use was very
>>> interesting. I was familiar with the fair use policies in the U.S. and the
>>> U.K. In spirit, they are the same. However, the problem is not fair use but
>>> with sites like libgen, where anyone can upload a file irrespective of
>>> copyright or ownership  That file is then available worldwide to everyone.
>>> Consequently, the holders of the copyright have no protection at all other
>>> than some people having ethical issues with libgen. Sadly, I find many of
>>> my colleagues and students do not see this as an ethical issue.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>> _______________________
>>>
>>> Ed Angel
>>>
>>> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
>>> (ARTS Lab)
>>> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>>>
>>> 1017 Sierra Pinon
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87501
>>> 505-984-0136 (home)   angel at cs.unm.edu
>>> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>>
>>> On Jul 5, 2020, at 4:14 PM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Edward
>>>
>>> The PDF of the 7th edition of your book being widely circulated was very
>>> likely not generated from its Kindle version, but from the Postscript
>>> version used to print your book. It was generated using Adobe Distiller 7+
>>> for a Macintosh. Must have been cloned from one of those unwatermarked
>>> copies dished out by your publisher's marketing team to "potential"
>>> customers.
>>>
>>> Sarbajit
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 2:52 AM Edward Angel <angel at cs.unm.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I’ve been a book author since 1972 and a textbook author since 1989. My
>>>> computer graphics textbook has been the most popular book in the area for
>>>> 20 years and just came out in its eighth edition with various editions
>>>> being available in Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Russian. Sadly, the book
>>>> business has changed over that time; changed in way that is bad for almost
>>>> everyone, especially authors. I think you’re faced with a lot of bad
>>>> choices. I hope some of the following will prove helpful. And if not
>>>> helpful, at least interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Before I forget, you might enjoy reading of my adventures writing the
>>>> first edition of my present textbook while on sabbatical in Venezuela,
>>>> Ecuador, Hong Kong and Nepal. There’s a pointer to it on my home page
>>>> www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>>>
>>>> When I had to pick a publisher, I knew the editors and  local book reps
>>>> at Academic Press, Addison-Wesley, Prentice Hall and Benjamin/Cummings.
>>>> They dominated the CS field and did so largely because they had editors who
>>>> knew the field, excellent book reps who knew the needs of the faculty and
>>>> students, a willingness to invest in a book, and in-house production. None
>>>> of these exist anymore and, as Tom pointed out, you're largely on your own.
>>>> It’s unfortunate if you care about how many copies get sold and your
>>>> royalties. I have many friends who self-published in the past. It’s a lot
>>>> of work either way but I prefer to put my effort into content and not
>>>> type-setting or marketing. None of my self-published friends have ever sold
>>>> many books.
>>>>
>>>> I had three excellent editors over 20 years. When I did my first
>>>> edition, my editor hired a development editor at great expense to improve
>>>> the quality of my writing. She worked with the CS faculty and grad students
>>>> at Caltech and Stanford. It made a huge difference. Now almost none of
>>>> these jobs exist within the publishers. All production is contracted out to
>>>> the low bidders (art, typesetting, copy editing, etc) most of whom are in
>>>> India. I no longer have an editor. There is one person working for the
>>>> publusher with whom I communicate with to try to get things done correctly
>>>> with the contractors. This last edition has been a long painful experience.
>>>>
>>>> So what happened? Books were always expensive for students, especially
>>>> when sold through college bookstores. Then used book sellers appeared and
>>>> Asian students started importing low cost Asian versions of the standard
>>>> textbooks. Under US copyright laws, both are legal. The publishers
>>>> responded by upping prices which reduced sales even more.
>>>>
>>>> And then came electronic media. At first, my book, like most others,
>>>> was still print-only. But the publisher sent perfect unwatermarked pdfs to
>>>> all the schools what adopted the book for use by students with special
>>>> needs. Wasn’t long before those pdfs made it to the Web. Then they had a
>>>> electronic version and a kindle version that students could rent for a
>>>> semester or year. The publisher, the largest in the business, was clueless
>>>> about web security and had no idea that Kindles are not secure. Very
>>>> quickly, the book appeared (with most of the other cs texts and various
>>>> best sellers) on a Russian website as a “public service.” End of paid sales.
>>>>
>>>> The new edition is only available in electronic form and the publisher
>>>> claims it is only available on a secure site. I doubt anyone on this list
>>>> believes that.
>>>>
>>>> Although I never in the past had issues with the publisher having the
>>>> copyright, which was pretty standard, I wish I had it now. Since there is
>>>> no hope of making significant royalties now (we used), my coauthor and I
>>>> would like to put the book out for free on our websites rather than having
>>>> it appear on various illegal Russian sites known to most students.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I no longer care about royalties but the long term issue I
>>>> worry about is why would any young person write a textbook. It’s a huge
>>>> amount of work and usually not something that in the academic world is
>>>> valued as highly as research papers and grant funding.
>>>>
>>>> Ed
>>>> _______________________
>>>>
>>>> Ed Angel
>>>>
>>>> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
>>>> (ARTS Lab)
>>>> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>>>>
>>>> 1017 Sierra Pinon
>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87501
>>>> 505-984-0136 (home)   angel at cs.unm.edu
>>>> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. Yes, self-publishing is an option. I am looking for an official
>>>> publisher mainly for one reason, namely that other scientists and
>>>> researchers can cite it, since I still cling to the illusion that someone
>>>> would actually do it. Normally self-published texts are not considered as
>>>> reliable or trustworthy sources. I didn't expect that finding a decent
>>>> publisher would be so difficult.
>>>>
>>>> -J.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> From: Tom Johnson <tom at jtjohnson.com>
>>>> Date: 7/4/20 20:10 (GMT+01:00)
>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed
>>>>
>>>> Jochen:
>>>> The deal being offered strikes me as a bad deal.
>>>>
>>>> Background:  I have been practicing and teaching about "Be Your Own
>>>> Publisher" for nearly 15 years.  There are, in my opinion, some major
>>>> problems with all publishers today.  It starts with control of the
>>>> copyright.  I think YOU should want to maintain control of the copyright to
>>>> your work.  It will depend on the contract, but many or most publishers
>>>> will try to lock down the copyright in their favor for all -- ALL -- forms
>>>> of your work in perpetuity and throughout the universe.  Sometimes quite
>>>> literally.
>>>>
>>>> Second, you should assume -- especially with a small publisher and you,
>>>> not being as well known  as Stephen King or Daniel Steele  -- the publisher
>>>> will do little if anything to promote your book beyond a mention in its
>>>> catalog and, maybe, some promotional links on Amazon.  Given that, a 5
>>>> percent royalty should be seen as a con.
>>>>
>>>> Third, given your computing experience, you should find it easy to
>>>> format and produce the book yourself.  I have used Lulu.com
>>>> <http://lulu.com/> for years.  It is especially good if you want to
>>>> have both hardback, paperback and PDF editions.  Again the advantages: you
>>>> keep the copyright, you can set (and change) the prices and to a degree the
>>>> royalties.  Also, Lulu and Amazon handle all the backend financial
>>>> arrangements and administration and pay directly and quickly.  I also use a
>>>> very good, high quality digital printer in Albuquerque for paperback
>>>> editions.  It is Lithexcel <https://lithexcel.com/services/print.html>.
>>>> It handles all the printing (one copy to any number) quickly, along with
>>>> all the fulfillment and accounting. The folks there will also, for only
>>>> $25, set up your book in the Amazon inventory search engine.  Finally,
>>>> there is Amazon's self-publishing arm
>>>> <https://www.bookbaby.com/free-publishing-guides?utm_campaign=GOOSL31&utm_source=SITELINK&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=sNzCXe5z8_dc%7Cpcrid%7C238281756657%7Cpmt%7Ce%7Cpkw%7Camazon%20book%20publishing%7Cslid%7CcWU1oXIv%7Ctargetids%7Ckwd-362938383597%7Cgroupid%7C48812614458%7C&pgrid=48812614458&ptaid=kwd-362938383597&gclid=Cj0KCQjw0YD4BRD2ARIsAHwmKVnFci42apQ6vWUruvHuYX-FOum9VCF7bx83c_tSMHGoby8yylL_RTMaAjOEEALw_wcB>.
>>>> While Amazon might take a bigger slice, the control over all aspects is in
>>>> your hands.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the problem/challenge with all of these.  *YOU* have to do the
>>>> marketing/publicity/promotion.  But so what?  If you today sign with any
>>>> publisher of any size you will have to do the same thing.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps.  Feel free to contact me with questions.  Also you
>>>> might want to see https://bit.ly/2ZvihKc
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> ============================================
>>>> Tom Johnson - tom at jtjohnson.com
>>>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
>>>> 505.577.6482(c)                                    505.473.9646(h)
>>>> *NM Foundation for Open Government* <http://nmfog.org/>
>>>> *Check out It's The People's Data
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Its-The-Peoples-Data/1599854626919671>*
>>>>
>>>> ============================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:29 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At one end of the spectrum there are the 5 big commercial publishers
>>>>> Hachette, HarperCollins, Macmillan, Penguin Random House and Simon &
>>>>> Schuster. They only publish stuff their agents select to make a lot of
>>>>> money. There are also the big academic publishers like OUP, CUP, HUP and
>>>>> MIT Press, which preferably publish strictly peer-reviewed content from
>>>>> professors at Ivy League universities who made their PhD at the age of 20.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the other end of the spectrum there are "predatory publishers" who
>>>>> publish anything you submit as long as you pay enough money for it. Open
>>>>> access books can also be very expensive. Publishing an "open access book"
>>>>> at De Gruyter for example costs up to 8000 $. You pay for it so that other
>>>>> people read it. It is basically some kind of advertising of your own work.
>>>>>
>>>>> For my own new book I finally have an offer from a small publisher in
>>>>> Washington D.C. who is somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. They are
>>>>> really small and offer 5% royalties. Should I accept this offer or wait for
>>>>> a better one? It is the only one from more than 25 publishers I have asked,
>>>>> and the publishers at the moment are flooded with submissions. :-/
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2020/mar/26/novel-writing-during-coronavirus-crisis-outbreak
>>>>>
>>>>> -J.
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