[FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed

[Gary Schiltz]

Sarbajit, I appreciate your perspective. I didn't realize that India's
constitution declares it to be a socialist state. Perhaps India could be
cited more often as an example of socialism actually working in an advanced
democracy, alongside capitalism.

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com> wrote:

> Gary
>
> Actually I agree with you to a considerable extent.
>
> Let us consider Edward's book, On Amazon-India his book (the 7th edn) is
> available to us at a Kindle price of approx $9.50. Amazon sells the same
> Kindle book in China at $45 and at $155+ for Kindle in the USA.
>
> What does this suggest to you ? For me it's that the authors are not
> making the profits - Jeff Bezos &Co. do
>
> Now to come back to the question of why prices in India are affordable,
> it's because we have (had ?) a few activist judges who ensured that India's
> constitutional status as a *socialist* state means the needs of the many
> (parasites ?) takes priority over the profits of the producers (creators).
>
> The prices of most life-saving *quality* drugs in India are probably
> 1/20th of what you would pay in the States. That's because the same court
> enforced our nation's sovereign rights under TRIPS/CUTS/WTO agreements etc
> . When I read about poor people in USA not being able to afford their next
> insulin shot because it's so darn expensive, you may like to know that a 30
> shot insulin Flexpen costs about $5 while the same manufacturer sells the
> identical pen for 20 times the price in New York.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 6:09 AM Gary Schiltz <gary at naturesvisualarts.com>
> wrote:
>
>> No offense to the government of your country, but just because its courts
>> have judged it to be legal, doesn't make it right. Of course "right" is a
>> subjective, moral concept, and I hasten to add that morality is relative
>> and personal. Additionally, I don't know how subject other countries are to
>> the pronouncements of a particular country's judgments. I'll leave that to
>> the United Nations. But in the case of copyrights, my own view of what is
>> right is that the availability for copying of material should ideally be in
>> the hands of the author. My two cents worth.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 7:11 PM Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I got your book from here
>>>
>>> https://www.pdfdrive.com/interactive-computer-graphics-a-top-down-approach-with-webgl-edward-angel-and-dave-d38281420.html
>>>
>>> The Indian judgment is clear, Reproduction is limited to a copy which
>>> the teacher/institute has LEGALLY purchased.
>>>
>>> There are other judgments from the same court directing that thousands
>>> of infringing movie piracy websites (and their whack-a-mole clones) are
>>> blocked in India for copyright violation and harm caused to producers.
>>>
>>> https://globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Utv_Software_Communication_Ltd._..._vs_1337X.To_And_Ors_on_10_April_2019-1.pdf
>>>
>>> Sarbajit
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 5:17 AM Edward Angel <angel at cs.unm.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks but the story is more complex.
>>>>
>>>> What transpired is in retrospect somewhat amusing. I received an email
>>>> from someone at a university that was using the book asking if I knew there
>>>> was a ps file on the web of the whole book. I checked it out, contacted the
>>>> instructor who had it taken down. I had no idea how anyone had obtained a
>>>> perfect copy of the book. Even during copyediting, I never was given access
>>>> to a final ps version with even the typesetting marks. My editor started a
>>>> big investigation at Pearson to see who had violated security during
>>>> production only to find out after weeks that the people at Pearson who
>>>> dealt with accessibility issues were sending out the file to every school
>>>> that adopted the book (at the time around 200 just in the US).
>>>>
>>>> What is odd to me is that the last time I checked libgen.io, which was
>>>> a while ago, the version there was not a ps version put a pdf in which you
>>>> could use the TOC interactively so I figured it was the kindle version
>>>> which my editor, who had become somewhat expert at this, showed me how easy
>>>> it is to get the kindle version. Apparently what is the the situation now
>>>> is that the ps version is libgen.is so someone else must have uploaded
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> The material on the Indian decision on respect to fair use was very
>>>> interesting. I was familiar with the fair use policies in the U.S. and the
>>>> U.K. In spirit, they are the same. However, the problem is not fair use but
>>>> with sites like libgen, where anyone can upload a file irrespective of
>>>> copyright or ownership  That file is then available worldwide to everyone.
>>>> Consequently, the holders of the copyright have no protection at all other
>>>> than some people having ethical issues with libgen. Sadly, I find many of
>>>> my colleagues and students do not see this as an ethical issue.
>>>>
>>>> Ed
>>>>
>>>> _______________________
>>>>
>>>> Ed Angel
>>>>
>>>> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
>>>> (ARTS Lab)
>>>> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>>>>
>>>> 1017 Sierra Pinon
>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87501
>>>> 505-984-0136 (home)   angel at cs.unm.edu
>>>> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 5, 2020, at 4:14 PM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Edward
>>>>
>>>> The PDF of the 7th edition of your book being widely circulated was
>>>> very likely not generated from its Kindle version, but from the Postscript
>>>> version used to print your book. It was generated using Adobe Distiller 7+
>>>> for a Macintosh. Must have been cloned from one of those unwatermarked
>>>> copies dished out by your publisher's marketing team to "potential"
>>>> customers.
>>>>
>>>> Sarbajit
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 2:52 AM Edward Angel <angel at cs.unm.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I’ve been a book author since 1972 and a textbook author since 1989.
>>>>> My computer graphics textbook has been the most popular book in the area
>>>>> for 20 years and just came out in its eighth edition with various editions
>>>>> being available in Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Russian. Sadly, the book
>>>>> business has changed over that time; changed in way that is bad for almost
>>>>> everyone, especially authors. I think you’re faced with a lot of bad
>>>>> choices. I hope some of the following will prove helpful. And if not
>>>>> helpful, at least interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Before I forget, you might enjoy reading of my adventures writing the
>>>>> first edition of my present textbook while on sabbatical in Venezuela,
>>>>> Ecuador, Hong Kong and Nepal. There’s a pointer to it on my home page
>>>>> www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>>>>
>>>>> When I had to pick a publisher, I knew the editors and  local book
>>>>> reps at Academic Press, Addison-Wesley, Prentice Hall and
>>>>> Benjamin/Cummings. They dominated the CS field and did so largely because
>>>>> they had editors who knew the field, excellent book reps who knew the needs
>>>>> of the faculty and students, a willingness to invest in a book, and
>>>>> in-house production. None of these exist anymore and, as Tom pointed out,
>>>>> you're largely on your own. It’s unfortunate if you care about how many
>>>>> copies get sold and your royalties. I have many friends who self-published
>>>>> in the past. It’s a lot of work either way but I prefer to put my effort
>>>>> into content and not type-setting or marketing. None of my self-published
>>>>> friends have ever sold many books.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had three excellent editors over 20 years. When I did my first
>>>>> edition, my editor hired a development editor at great expense to improve
>>>>> the quality of my writing. She worked with the CS faculty and grad students
>>>>> at Caltech and Stanford. It made a huge difference. Now almost none of
>>>>> these jobs exist within the publishers. All production is contracted out to
>>>>> the low bidders (art, typesetting, copy editing, etc) most of whom are in
>>>>> India. I no longer have an editor. There is one person working for the
>>>>> publusher with whom I communicate with to try to get things done correctly
>>>>> with the contractors. This last edition has been a long painful experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what happened? Books were always expensive for students, especially
>>>>> when sold through college bookstores. Then used book sellers appeared and
>>>>> Asian students started importing low cost Asian versions of the standard
>>>>> textbooks. Under US copyright laws, both are legal. The publishers
>>>>> responded by upping prices which reduced sales even more.
>>>>>
>>>>> And then came electronic media. At first, my book, like most others,
>>>>> was still print-only. But the publisher sent perfect unwatermarked pdfs to
>>>>> all the schools what adopted the book for use by students with special
>>>>> needs. Wasn’t long before those pdfs made it to the Web. Then they had a
>>>>> electronic version and a kindle version that students could rent for a
>>>>> semester or year. The publisher, the largest in the business, was clueless
>>>>> about web security and had no idea that Kindles are not secure. Very
>>>>> quickly, the book appeared (with most of the other cs texts and various
>>>>> best sellers) on a Russian website as a “public service.” End of paid sales.
>>>>>
>>>>> The new edition is only available in electronic form and the publisher
>>>>> claims it is only available on a secure site. I doubt anyone on this list
>>>>> believes that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although I never in the past had issues with the publisher having the
>>>>> copyright, which was pretty standard, I wish I had it now. Since there is
>>>>> no hope of making significant royalties now (we used), my coauthor and I
>>>>> would like to put the book out for free on our websites rather than having
>>>>> it appear on various illegal Russian sites known to most students.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I no longer care about royalties but the long term issue I
>>>>> worry about is why would any young person write a textbook. It’s a huge
>>>>> amount of work and usually not something that in the academic world is
>>>>> valued as highly as research papers and grant funding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed
>>>>> _______________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed Angel
>>>>>
>>>>> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
>>>>> (ARTS Lab)
>>>>> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>>>>>
>>>>> 1017 Sierra Pinon
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87501
>>>>> 505-984-0136 (home)   angel at cs.unm.edu
>>>>> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks. Yes, self-publishing is an option. I am looking for an
>>>>> official publisher mainly for one reason, namely that other scientists and
>>>>> researchers can cite it, since I still cling to the illusion that someone
>>>>> would actually do it. Normally self-published texts are not considered as
>>>>> reliable or trustworthy sources. I didn't expect that finding a decent
>>>>> publisher would be so difficult.
>>>>>
>>>>> -J.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>> From: Tom Johnson <tom at jtjohnson.com>
>>>>> Date: 7/4/20 20:10 (GMT+01:00)
>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed
>>>>>
>>>>> Jochen:
>>>>> The deal being offered strikes me as a bad deal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Background:  I have been practicing and teaching about "Be Your Own
>>>>> Publisher" for nearly 15 years.  There are, in my opinion, some major
>>>>> problems with all publishers today.  It starts with control of the
>>>>> copyright.  I think YOU should want to maintain control of the copyright to
>>>>> your work.  It will depend on the contract, but many or most publishers
>>>>> will try to lock down the copyright in their favor for all -- ALL -- forms
>>>>> of your work in perpetuity and throughout the universe.  Sometimes quite
>>>>> literally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, you should assume -- especially with a small publisher and
>>>>> you, not being as well known  as Stephen King or Daniel Steele  -- the
>>>>> publisher will do little if anything to promote your book beyond a mention
>>>>> in its catalog and, maybe, some promotional links on Amazon.  Given that, a
>>>>> 5 percent royalty should be seen as a con.
>>>>>
>>>>> Third, given your computing experience, you should find it easy to
>>>>> format and produce the book yourself.  I have used Lulu.com
>>>>> <http://lulu.com/> for years.  It is especially good if you want to
>>>>> have both hardback, paperback and PDF editions.  Again the advantages: you
>>>>> keep the copyright, you can set (and change) the prices and to a degree the
>>>>> royalties.  Also, Lulu and Amazon handle all the backend financial
>>>>> arrangements and administration and pay directly and quickly.  I also use a
>>>>> very good, high quality digital printer in Albuquerque for paperback
>>>>> editions.  It is Lithexcel <https://lithexcel.com/services/print.html>.
>>>>> It handles all the printing (one copy to any number) quickly, along with
>>>>> all the fulfillment and accounting. The folks there will also, for only
>>>>> $25, set up your book in the Amazon inventory search engine.  Finally,
>>>>> there is Amazon's self-publishing arm
>>>>> <https://www.bookbaby.com/free-publishing-guides?utm_campaign=GOOSL31&utm_source=SITELINK&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=sNzCXe5z8_dc%7Cpcrid%7C238281756657%7Cpmt%7Ce%7Cpkw%7Camazon%20book%20publishing%7Cslid%7CcWU1oXIv%7Ctargetids%7Ckwd-362938383597%7Cgroupid%7C48812614458%7C&pgrid=48812614458&ptaid=kwd-362938383597&gclid=Cj0KCQjw0YD4BRD2ARIsAHwmKVnFci42apQ6vWUruvHuYX-FOum9VCF7bx83c_tSMHGoby8yylL_RTMaAjOEEALw_wcB>.
>>>>> While Amazon might take a bigger slice, the control over all aspects is in
>>>>> your hands.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the problem/challenge with all of these.  *YOU* have to do the
>>>>> marketing/publicity/promotion.  But so what?  If you today sign with any
>>>>> publisher of any size you will have to do the same thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps.  Feel free to contact me with questions.  Also you
>>>>> might want to see https://bit.ly/2ZvihKc
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>>> ============================================
>>>>> Tom Johnson - tom at jtjohnson.com
>>>>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
>>>>> 505.577.6482(c)                                    505.473.9646(h)
>>>>> *NM Foundation for Open Government* <http://nmfog.org/>
>>>>> *Check out It's The People's Data
>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Its-The-Peoples-Data/1599854626919671>*
>>>>>
>>>>> ============================================
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
>>>>> www.avast.com
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:29 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> At one end of the spectrum there are the 5 big commercial publishers
>>>>>> Hachette, HarperCollins, Macmillan, Penguin Random House and Simon &
>>>>>> Schuster. They only publish stuff their agents select to make a lot of
>>>>>> money. There are also the big academic publishers like OUP, CUP, HUP and
>>>>>> MIT Press, which preferably publish strictly peer-reviewed content from
>>>>>> professors at Ivy League universities who made their PhD at the age of 20.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the other end of the spectrum there are "predatory publishers" who
>>>>>> publish anything you submit as long as you pay enough money for it. Open
>>>>>> access books can also be very expensive. Publishing an "open access book"
>>>>>> at De Gruyter for example costs up to 8000 $. You pay for it so that other
>>>>>> people read it. It is basically some kind of advertising of your own work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For my own new book I finally have an offer from a small publisher in
>>>>>> Washington D.C. who is somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. They are
>>>>>> really small and offer 5% royalties. Should I accept this offer or wait for
>>>>>> a better one? It is the only one from more than 25 publishers I have asked,
>>>>>> and the publishers at the moment are flooded with submissions. :-/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2020/mar/26/novel-writing-during-coronavirus-crisis-outbreak
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -J.
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