[FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM

Tue Jul 21 13:33:57 EDT 2020

Nick wrote;

OK, so what if I believe x, and I believe y and I believe that beliefs x+y
entail z? Then I believe z, right?  … Entailment …"entails" belief [if]  I
believe in the laws of logic, right? 

Frank Wrote: 

Not right.  As I said, you may believe or not x, y, and/or z independently whether or not you know logic.  In the meantime x and y imply z.

Not if I believe logic, right?   If not, please say why.  To believe something is to act as if it were the case. To believe logically is to behave as if logic were the case.  Or is the problem in our understanding of belief.  You hold that belief is an inner state that entails nothing whatsoever in your behavior, past or present?  

Ok, in that case, I see why you said what you said.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 10:57 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM

Not right.  As I said, you may believe or not x, y, and/or z independently whether or not you know logic.  In the meantime x and y imply z.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 9:37 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

OK, so what if I believe x, and I believe y and I believe that beliefs x+y
entail z? Then I believe z, right?  But do we want to say that I believe z
BECAUSE I believed x and y?  Entailment never "entails" belief unless I
believe in the laws of logic, right?  For some reason I want to reserve
"cause" for the situation which believing y and believing that x+y entails
z, I came to believe z because I came to believe x.  

I am plainly out of my depth, here.   I mean, even more than usual.  We need
a logician, or 4 years at St. Johns, or both.  I think that a logician
consultant would say -- wearily -- that Nick wants to limit the word cause
to "efficient" causes, that experimental psychologists tend to do that, etc.
So then the question becomes, is the causality asserted when I say that the
snifter broke because I left it on the table when I went to bed AND the cat
knocked it off the table while  eating the dip from last night's party the
same causality as I might assert if I said that the snifter broke BECAUSE it
was brittle.  And is the causality that we assert when we assert sidewise
causality -- a sequence of events -- in any way related to the causality
that we assert when we assert upward or downward causality.  

Glen has offered, and EricS has endorsed, a work-around for all this mess
which I have yet to understand.  Really, I shouldn't speak to this issue any
more before I have another go at their messages, which I attach.  

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Jon Zingale
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 6:07 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM

What about something being believably prior rather than just temporally
prior? Perhaps, we would use a different word than cause?

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