[FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Tue May 5 20:03:49 EDT 2020

Hi, Eric (Smith), 

I think you have made your decision.  Forced to make a choice between "...engaging in an essential act of reason and discourse engaging in "a gambit to win a contest", I know where I would come down, and I assume you would come down in the same place.   But I think that's a wrong way to characterize the choice situation we are in.  I would characterize it as the difference between holding many ideas lightly and exploratorily or pursuing an idea in a relentless manner to see where it leads (and where it fails).   I value both in the pursuit of knowledge, although, in the FRIAM context I probably do more of the latter than the former.  

I do question the heuristic value of  the idea of the impenetrable interior, but if somebody wants explore it as a scientific approach, even a pragmatist should be willing to explore its empirical implications.   What are the scientific implications of believing that you have an inner life that is, in principle, impenetrable to observation by others?  Let's explore those.  By all means.   I think at least Frank and Bruce are temped by that possibility.  

Or is the objection of another form:  Do we have to be doing science all the time?  Can't we just have fun SOME of the time?  

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 4:54 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

I think the phenomenologists would claim that until you have realized that all worlds are only “inner worlds”, you haven’t properly interpreted the informal use of the word “world” into a philosophically serious frame.

Of course they are Continental Philosophers.  So one has the option to simply refuse to use any of the patterns or forms that they try to use consistently, and replace anything they say _in the way they say it_ with something else that oneself says _in some different way_, and then claim that when said in the different way, the point they were trying to make cannot be sensible, by construction.

I have on many occasions wondered what is the balance between rephrasing to get more angles on a question, versus rephrasing to insist on a scheme in which the question is unexpressible.  The former is an essential act of reason and discourse; the latter is a refusal to cooperate and a gambit to win a contest.  For any given statement, are we sure that it can be assigned to one and not the other?

Eric

> On May 6, 2020, at 4:35 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Hi,Glen,
> 
> Careful.  Isn't the formulation "inner world" entirely contradictory?  
> 
> N
> 
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University 
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?
> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 12:50 PM
> To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve
> 
> However, I think we can come up with a (maybe someday) testable hypothesis based on hidden states. In principle, if EricC's principle is taken seriously, the inner world of a black box device will be *completely* represented on its surface (ala the holographic principle). Any information not exhibited by a black box's *behavior* will be lost/random. 
> 
> This implies something about the compressibility and information content of the black box's behavior, right? 
> 
> On 5/5/20 10:38 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>> This does not advance an argument against the possibility of a computer thinking — merely an assertion that "behavior" is not a valid basis upon which to argue that they do.
> 
> 
> --
> ☣ uǝlƃ
> 
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 
> 
> 
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 