[FRIAM] from 5/15 virtual FRIAM

[Prof David West]

Before Utah, it was the mobs. The first time the Feds stepped in was forced conscription of almost every able bodied man - just as they were beginning their emigration to Utah (the Mormon Battalion who were marched to Mexico before being released from service). Statehood was predicated on armed invasion (actually the troops stopped in Wyoming, ran out of salt, refused Brigham Young's gift of salt, and did no more than threaten and bluster) by the US Federal Government, the Feds deposed Brigham Young and installed a political governor, rescinded women's right to vote and hold public office (both of which they had from the beginning of the church and would not recover until the rest of the US passed the 19th amendment), the Feds, confiscated all property belonging to anyone with any kind of tie to polygamy, shut down the breweries and distilleries, etc. etc.

It is not a "few elders." The entire Church has less than 100 full-time ecclesiastical elders. Everything else is lay members, serving for limited terms. The one deciding if you get resources is not "an elder" it is your neighbor and probably your friend, and since he is a lay person, maybe your employer or employee.

I have a solid antipathy to any government,

... except I have no problem with the situational leadership, a kind of government, that prevailed among people before we, as a species, invented agriculture. And, don't try to tell me that "primitive" forms of government, or non-hierarchical and institutional forms of government can't scale to modern society. You do not know that, and there is lots of evidence that such an assertion would be wrong.

If Mormonism were a theocracy I would abhor it equally. However, the socio-cultural System that operates in parallel to but fundamentally apart from the doctrinal church is, I believe, admirable because it is a peer-to-peer, everyone equal, means for assuring smooth social interaction and mutual interdependence as necessary. Not even close to a government.

I would echo Steve G's proposal to turn 'welfare" over to faith-based organizations, but no any such. Only those without a full time costly bureaucracy of priests, prelates, cardinals, et. al. and only those that are not de facto theocracies. This leaves a short list, like the mennonites, amish (both would be difficult because they are insular), the Soka Gakkai (a modern thread of Buddhism), LDS, and a host of specific congregations among other faiths.

Rant — nape hair fully erect
davew


On Sat, May 16, 2020, at 12:21 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi David, 
> 
> As I review to myself the very little I know about LDS history, it seems to
> me that the church suffered more at the hands of mobs than it did of
> governments.  Is that true?  And if so, where does the distaste for
> governments arise?  And how is a system in which some few elders can deploy
> the resources of a community as they see fit NOT a government?
> I keep expecting Jim Gattiker to weigh in.  I think he will say something
> about the hegemony and coercive power of The State.  With LDS you can always
> choose a different religion.  So, it's not that you fear governments, it's
> that you fear SOME governments.  And then the question is, what is the
> difference between governments you fear and those you don't?  
> 
> Nick 
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>  
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 11:08 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] from 5/15 virtual FRIAM
> 
> Topics arose on Friday that I would be interested in pursuing if anyone else
> shares the interest
> 
> We briefly talked about story and evocation versus representation
> 
> I claimed that a words and pictures can be placed on a continuum between
> representational and evocative. A journal article being closer to
> representation, poetry closer to evocative. Pictures are more likely to be
> evocative (although the typical "here I am at the Grand Canyon" pic is
> mostly representative) because sight dominates our senses and text has to be
> processed via the left-brain before we can make sense of / react to it.
> 
> Stories can be fixed on the same spectrum. I have spent a lot of time
> working with story within the world of software development. Although story
> has been a constant in software (e.g.UML Use Cases, Agile User Stories) they
> have been nearly useless because they are representational - requirement
> capture - in nature and stripped of evocative context.
> 
> Nick raised the issue of being contrarian with regards science and could get
> no one to admit to anything beyond ignoring doctor's orders. This
> conversation also briefly touched on conspiracies and the possibility of a
> conspiracy without conspirators.
> 
> My frequent COVID contrariness is, I think, an example of what Nick was
> looking for. It certainly contains the arrogance of thinking I am better
> informed with regard relevant data than what is contained in the models and
> prognostications put forward by the experts.
> 
> Also, I would assert that the "Deep State" is a real thing, and an exemplar
> of a conspiracy without conspirators.
> 
> Thirdly, we talked about charity and the gap between personal and
> institutional. Contrary to Steve, who noted he grew up absent any kind of
> religious charitable context, I grew up in a culture where personal charity,
> awareness, and mutual aid was ubiquitous and constant. Welfare was
> distributed with every Bishop (roughly equivalent to parish priest -
> responsible for 100-150 families) had full authority to grant food,
> clothing, housing, etc. assistance to anyone within his Ward. Social
> contact, both in church services but also via activities like Family Home
> Teaching, meant that everyone in the Ward was aware of the needs of everyone
> else and the Bishop was fully informed as well. When families, even
> communities, experienced disaster, it was rectified in a matter of days and
> months. Similar things have been observed in Mennonite and Amish
> communities.
> 
> The social system integrated with the LDS religion (or Amish or Mennonite)
> can provide both the personal and the institutional support, and charity,
> that will forever elude bureaucratic government.
> 
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