[FRIAM] Metaphor [POSSIBLE DISTRACTON FROM]: privacy games

Fri May 29 00:26:43 EDT 2020

Steve-

There is a rigorous definition of curvature that doesn't depend on the
manifold's being embedded in Euclidean space.  Right, Jon?

By the way, I was a private pilot during the 70s.  Hywel was a more
experienced and more cautious pilot.  I think there are others in Friam.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, May 28, 2020, 10:17 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

>
> On 5/28/20 9:32 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> > Steve,
> >
> > After thinking about them I think curved manifolds are real just as
> > right triangles.  Perhaps my introspection deludes me.
> I think manifolds "just are", to call them "curved" is to place them in
> the reference frame of Euclidean.   To a creature who lives on the
> surface of a sphere or a torus, a euclidean straight line or
> poly-gon/hedron would be "just wrong".  Euclidean straight lines are now
> curved and vice-versa.  The problem is that *we* are mostly
> experienced/habituated to thinking in Euclidean Straight lines (what
> light (nearly)travels along at the scale of gravitational flux we live
> in).  In another post I appeal to global scale navigation for an
> alternative, and in my orbital mechanics dreams I claim that I
> *experience* a (pseudo) complex manifold *directly* (following the
> isoclines of "least action" in Guerin's terminology?) or
> conserved/budgeted Delta-V.
> > I think you agree with me about thinking without language.
> > Sometimes.  In the morning I don't think, "Now I am going to open this
> > cabinet to get a bowl..."
>
> I think I agree that on a good day this happens (otherwise I'd not have
> coffee and my avocado-toasted-bagel until later in the day).
>
> I had a friend/tenant living in my house for couple of years (2016-2018)
> who had a brain injury 30 years ago which was treated with a variety of
> physical and talk therapy, psychotropics, ECTs, and other "mind bending"
> things like EMDR and bilateral-something-or other.   He had a horrible
> problem with "sequencing".   Once he DID formulate something in language
> he would be stuck with that formulation...  and if interrupted while
> executing or if someone tried to inject into or reorder his formulation
> , he would get stalled and all but have to "start over" and talk himself
> through his formulated steps until he got to the point where he had been
> derailed.  Things he had done habitually in his life (driving, cooking
> his favorite chile, etc. were mostly immune to this...)
>
> I will agree that there are many familiar/practiced sequences of
> impulses and actions that we atomize to the point that it takes
> virtually no conscious attention to execute them.  For example, not long
> after I learned to type, my ability to translate language into pixels
> (ink, ???) is entirely subconscious.   If I *think* too much about what
> my fingers are doing, I get fumbly and have to do a lot of backing up
> and starting again.  My orbital dreams felt like I was training myself
> to "gesture in 3D delta-V phase space"... I don't claim that anything
> I've done in my dreams is particularly registered to real orbital
> mechanics (though it resembles it in some ways as best I can tell), only
> that it is (was) becoming subliminal/subconscious/embodied.
>
> I believe you are also a tennis player (you current, me long-since
> deprecated skill) so you know the huge "lexicon" of
> motions/trajectories/gestures your body knows how to execute in phase
> space... from your serve to a "rush to the net" or an "overhead slam" or
> a variety of top, side, back-spin ways to stroke the ball.   I can
> *still* without a racquet in my hand for decades or a foot on a court
> "feel" these things in my body... which allows me to watch Tennis on TV
> (mirror neurons) in a way I will (and have) never been able to watch any
> other sport... even though I've thrown a few spiral passes, kicked a few
> soccer balls, hit a few home runs (or pop flys), and sunk a few
> freethrows/3pointers/layups in my life, they never really got fully
> encoded the way a decade or more of (weakly) competitive tennis did.
>
> I *think* this is the level of "sensorial grounding out" that
> Lakoff/Nunez appeal to at the bottom of their own "metaphors all the way
> down" conception.   In deference to my trying to allow some of the
> layers to be analogies, models and mappings,  I suppose I might say "it
> is mappings all the way down" until it hits the hardware (wetware) where
> I contend there are still "mappings" but rather different than the ones
> we think of in the "mappings" from metaphorical target to source
> domains.  The grounding under the ground are the kinds of ion-channels
> described recently in his Touch/Pressure/Temperature/Proprioception
> paper link. I hope Glen will agree with me (not so that I feel I am
> *right* only because I *think* this captures/resolves a lot of what we
> have argued here and offline?)  somewhat on this alternative of "maps"
> all the way down?
>
> I think your sense that space-time is "bent" or "curved" is an example
> of where the metaphor (mapping) has been atomized.   To your conception
> (I suggest) absolute space is Cartesian and the *real* topology of space
> is "curved" in that frame of reference.   I say this because I think
> until I started working with global-scale navigation and more recently
> dreaming in orbital mechanics, I pretty much felt the way you describe
> the "shape of space".
>
> I think it is similar to the duality I've described here before between
> *believing* or *understanding* or *knowing* that the moon orbits the
> earth while the earth-moon system orbits the sun whilst *experiencing*
> it as "the sun and moon, each on their own schedule, rise in the east
> and set in the west.  Every day!".  The earth doesn't spin at all (the
> sky does!).
>
> Mumble,
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
>
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