[FRIAM] Logo/Ideo/Phono graphic language

Carl Tollander carl at plektyx.com
Tue Oct 13 12:34:07 EDT 2020 

Great question!    Busy week, tho.   We might look at related kanji (my
favorite is the kanji characters for gate and ma), the system of radicals,
and various systems for transliteration (romaji, Hepburn, etc) and
different systems for pronouncing the same kanji, and how all those
interlace.

It is quite the rabbit hole.   Consider:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%96%80#Japanese
and
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%96%93

The last question is even better and I will have some thoughts there later,
but as I say, busy week.

C


On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> We obviously have at least two Japanophiles here...
>
> My (very limited) familiarity with Chinese Logographic written language
> and the inherited/derived Japanese Kanji  I was struck by how intrinsic the
> metaphorical nature of Ideograms are.   Pictograms are more "visually
> onomatapoeic" which is (more than) a nod to the perceptual grounding of
> language.  It seems that Logographic writing mixes Pictographic,
> Ideographic and even Rebus (phonetic loan words) as-needed, with what seems
> like a natural drift toward phonographic language/syllabaries (e.g.
> Katakana).   Of course, having metaphor-derangement-syndrome, I find
> metaphor everywhere and even more to the point of my own idiosyncratic
> perspective, the stacking or composition of metaphors evidenced in
> ideogrammatic compounds and the broad use of radicals to
> combine/modify/nuance ideograms.
>
> I'd be curious if either of you (anyone really) has more insight into the
> way these written languages maintain the vestiges of their own
> evolution/development and hints for how people who use these languages
> might structure their thought similarly or differently to those who use
> entirely phonographic writing (all of the modern West?)
>
> - Steve
> On 10/13/20 8:42 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book
>
> *The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry
> <https://books.google.com/books?id=P14rAH8xU9EC&printsec=frontcover>*,
> composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound> after the author's death, 1918.
>
> I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and language
> and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why he was wrong.
>
> You might enjoy it.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> Thanks, not there yet.    Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.
>
> The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in
> short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some
> opportunity for self-reflection.   A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.
>
> Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the
> English language and the nature of translation.   One of the works that
> disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith
> Grossman's "Why Translation Matters".  (note -- she doesn't talk about
> Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.
>
> C
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>
> Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Carl -
> Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I
> don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow
> "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal
> freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps
> someone can articulate this better than I have?
>
> - Steve
>
> Steve,
>
> You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".
>  Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.
>
> >>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are
> clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their
> personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
> Carl Tollander wrote:
>
> -9,-8.1
> But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.
> Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.
>
> I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for
> themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they
> seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will*
> on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .
> When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of
> competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me
> feel systemically ill.
>
> I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are
> clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their
> personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on
> maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t
> think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire
> to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and
> that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important
> than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an
> article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim.
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
> *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>
>
>
>
> So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it
> wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.
>
>
>
> Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just
> earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that
> cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions
> “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those
> who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who
> stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had
> caused them to stay behind?
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange
> things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true,
> which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a
> very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie
> Sanders.
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>
>
>
>
> ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,U3OccPSjskXK4svW9X1qk3Vv7E5UwkKy9mLBuwBfoPfJKYxJ6aCBK0PVs7udT_TYGhprp1R603GJlx6xKqM35rw3C-x7J0zwGZ6_tMf3hqMPHZB64xRxPw,,&typo=1>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>
>
>
>
> Econ left/right:      -0.88
>
> Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1
>
>
>
> davew
>
> NOT a Libertarian
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing
> about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before
> we bury all our hatchets.
>
>
>
> n
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,jI9pg2_C34oOCpyabOwNVYM7KJGCPx7H3EupAcE2q9TK2V75UO7IrMX_UOS1TIZ0puSAcbRFu09JGz8yK4gzt6DIJCqNtiA3EEOMsqYT64DoqXJS7TM,&typo=1>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Gary Schiltz
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>
>
>
> I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was
> surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the
> whole graph.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <gtduncan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on
> social issues
>
>
>
> George Duncan
>
> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
>
> georgeduncanart.com
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fgeorgeduncanart.com%2f&c=E,1,7A1nvLLwvbARh5EsbrcBP_x1ncqDWHW84o2ARPieWFtHxbGsgklMKBqeuNgbEd_czryT4FTxDDbM2mCDHXdJbmd_5-i0Yf4oVpAGGN27uHZ8&typo=1>
>
> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
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> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
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>
>
>
> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
> then be a valuable delusion."
>
> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
>
> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
> power." Joanna Macy.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <jonzingale at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
>
> left-libertarian.
>
>
>
> Take the test here if you are interested:
>
> https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.politicalcompass.org%2ftest&c=E,1,e8hAuyhPdtiZ876M9sd6OmWzNeLJXSYR8MHrODvh3vN2g_nLrK21RY_5OBeUJlK4p0Rzh08Ymx64c4LiIgp7JiIDXXzqbbqx3zHFw_W8CPvxLq3_SnjwgA,,&typo=1>
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