[FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

Mon Sep 7 19:19:11 EDT 2020

Sorry,  Eric,

Dumb error on my part.   I didn’t look at the link.  

That alternative explanation for “redneck” looks really good;  I had never heard of it.  Of course, the one may be a reference to the other.  But my interpretation smacks of Northeastern snootiness, so I suspect the bandana explanation is correct.  

Thanks for persisting.  

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2020 4:34 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

So now I am confused, Nick.

I had always assumed just what you say, that it referred in particular to farmers, who out in fields for endless days, bent over ploughs and such, get sunburned.

It was the guy who goes by Beau of the Fifth Column who recited that little thing about the West Virginia Miner Revolt as the origin of the term as a meme.  Then that museum also claimed it.

So, understood that it is normally used as a classist designation now.  But from a philological perspective, I am now curious how it became a thing.

There is a different post on what this whole thing is that got distilled in the RNC convention.  I think it is about what people become under a lust for power.  But to make that argument requires time I cannot permit for the time being.  Of course everything else in life gets entrained once something like this is going on, so I am accepting making an oversimplification to try to get at the thing driving the train.

Who wants power, why they want it, whether they are legitimate in wanting it, and the whole question of how the legitimacy of an aim is related to the effect on the human character, what it means to lust for something, and why that is a term of opprobrium in careful society, and in particular what lust becomes when it is for power.

But as I said, I can’t.  Besides, just my attempt to make sense of a thing that won’t yield to sense.  Maybe all empty.

Eric

On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:18 PM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi EricS, 

It’s a classist designation, that refers (I suppose) to white people who make their living working out of doors.  I suppose it to arise from the fact that many of the original settlers of the south were of Scottish / Irish descent, and so ill prepared for bright and high southern sun.  

It’s hard to talk about evil without participating in some of it.  If we are to defeat trump (and more importantly, the Trumpism that will endure after we defeat him) we are going to have to talk about this stuff.  Own up.  

Anyway, I’ve probably done enough damage for one weekend. 

Good to hear from you, 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,VNlIV0H6_ijgBZ50QvMRueLCKENvHgY-HkEk3P2QMOdrw-ZmGEGqCb1X_9VCsN-XDrLU6-1tssKR8B-yOrCW6hgbRckkq0m6lL4_6tNjKLs2&typo=1> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2020 3:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

It’s interesting you should have ended your email with that term, Nick.

I just (in a different medium) learned the meaning of it a few weeks ago.  But a more complete source is

https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2015/05/20/is-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.yesmagazine.org%2feconomy%2f2015%2f05%2f20%2fis-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars%2f&c=E,1,7FS7EZ5-iRQAb7nQ6yGMY9-ZUPC4WLHj1dIbiX3rQ6iq_GPYOPd_BQ6oEJvs6-1wnRvZDtLzEmQB3mqfq3amHJSGykLbpWFkkuRT5RWl3qKx8U30QwjGnq91FtU,&typo=1> 

It complicates the sense of what you should be concerned about responding to.

Eric

On Sep 7, 2020, at 4:43 PM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Eric (in your capacity as the one who inspired me to write) and others,

You can write about “Nick” just so long as you are writing about the Transcendental Nick, not the actual one.  Is that clear?  Glen, and I are having a discussion on this very point, off line.  Just who is it that we are writing to when we write to a list?  

Look, everything you say is true about elephants.  And you are right, I don’t get to declaim that there are no elephants, as long a single person is behaving as if he sees one.  But remember I was writing about Trump and trying to get my head around somebody who forgives Trump for being a liar by asserting that “He tells it like it is!”  What could that possibly mean?  

When Trump stands by a Vietnam-era soldier’s grave, in the presence of that soldier’s father, and says, “I don’t get it; what did they get out of it?”  something in me responds, that I have a hard time talking about.   I cannot imagine sending my grandchildren to war, particularly not any of the wars we have fought in my lifetime.  So, odious as Trump’s expression was, in the context in which it occurred, it speaks for a part of me.  Trump tells the truth about these nether impulses that some of us harbor.   He speaks truthfully of my inner redneck.  He tells it like it is.  

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,Qy8NYHw061lsW96cG_pMF1nrRGKfNU6lLS-YkDnv6LBuHoM1qEZrSDVqTemL77bGYRCnOlkuVM2kIqGO_j48fBCmiBebqUJSM-Q7fIFH&typo=1> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2020 12:30 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

"The truth he tells is that he sees elephants.  There are no elephants.  But there are a lot of people who see elephants, and they are weary unto death of pretending that they don’t see them. " 

Nope, nope, nope. Anyone else on this list gets to say that, and maybe I would even agree with it coming from anyone else, but Nick Thompson does not get to say that. Nick must concede that there is something those people are responding to, and does not get to assert "there are no elephants." Nick must concede, both as a New Realist and as the type of New England Liberal he strives to be, that there is a point of view from which there are elephants in the room, and that he has some obligation to meet the people at the place where that view is, especially if he wants to try to talk those people into moving somewhere else. And he can't do that while also making a blanket declaration of the non-existence of the elephants. 

Nick could be fully consistent with what I have said above while also believing that the elephant-seeing point of view is (developmentally speaking) some sort of unstable equilibrium, and that those people would change when exposed to additional aspects of the world -- whereas Nick's own non-elephant-seeing point of view is (developmentally speaking) a much more stable equilibrium, robust to the effects of wider-world exposure.* The problem comes when Nick wants to assert that in a mythic future, when the dust of investigation settles, and everyone has experienced all there is to experience about the world, the elephant-seeing view will be gone, and only the non-elephant-seeing view will remain. (With that being what we are shaking our stick at with claims regarding "truth" and "real".) But if psychology works like the other sciences, that is not what will happen. Rather, in that mythic future, we will have mapped out the conditions under which elephant-seeing occurs and the situations in which it does not.** This is just as the chemist maps out situations in which a given chemical reaction occurs and situations in which it does not, and just as a mathematician maps out the postulates combinations that lead to certain mathematical phenomena. In the end, when the dust of investigation settles, we will understand the conditions under which elephant-seeing occurs and the situations under which it does not. And when we find ourselves in a world that meets elephant-seeing conditions (among the concaphone of conditions present at any given time), we must admit that there is a place to stand from which elephants will be seen!

*  That is, of course, an empirical assertion, and as Nick tries to share aspects of the world with them, those other people will no doubt try to share with him, and the robustness of both sides will be tested.

** I hope it is clear that "situation" is being used in the broadest sense of the word, to include the developmental history of those involved, among other factors.  

P.S. I know Nick doesn't like it when messages over the FRIAM list get overly personal, but I hope you will all indulge me on occasion, as the issues seem pertinent to several past and present discussions on the list. 

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 1:25 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Eric,

The truth he tells is that he sees elephants.  There are no elephants.  But there are a lot of people who see elephants, and they are weary unto death of pretending that they don’t see them.   When Trump speaks, they get to say, “Oh, you see elephants, too!  I am not the only one!” 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,kj5GsuskdtGLYJiG_gypTrmzfYqCM29zGj49rPdfjZsjAz05Bmsi12AZVMoGKKSYeghTh-lovniZfaK8w10Lk8u5naLTxn9KQcj38OkgXN9PbgRHQc_Xm00-&typo=1> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 11:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

"Perhaps I should have said, early on, “Look, I’m sorry, I keep seeing you  as Uncle Remus.  I am sure, as I get to know you better, I will get over it.  Please be patient with me, and please call me out whenever you feel confined by it. ” 

A Liberalism that does not free me is not worth the name."

It will probably not surprise you to know that I find this narration baffling. You definitely could say that to him, at any time. There is nothing "liberal" about feeling trapped to not discuss something like that. If you felt trapped for a bit, not saying anything seems wise. However, at some point, you just say it, or give up on the idea that you actually have a problem with it. Personally, I'd stay away from an Uncle Remus reference, but the whole point here is that the two of you are old, so it might make sense in your world. At any rate, the worst case result will be that you have been honest with him, and he never spoke to you again. Which is, IMHO, a better outcome than your not being honest with him, and he never spoke to you again, which seems to be where you are now. Sometimes, certainly not always, but sometimes, when I make moves like that in a conversation, you later express admiration and/or envy. 

I think this relates to the larger question of what some people see in Trump. They see him as constantly pointing out what they (his fans) see as the "elephant in the room." Sure, he says a boat load of other things, and lots of those things are not true, but those aren't the important things. "Why do we want all these people from shithole countries coming here?" is a great example of a perceived elephant. "There are good people on both sides" is another, as is the recent dust-up about "anti-racist" workshops. When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away 1) See I was right not to risk saying that myself, because my supposedly friendly, supposedly open-minded neighbors would have attacked me just for saying it, and maybe even tried to get me fired, because apparently they think my kids should go hungry if I think something they don't like. 2) Thank God someone had the guts to ask the question! 3) What kind of crazy country do these libs want to turn us into, with all these elephants wandering all around the room, and it's not even enough to not say anything, because now you gotta be worried about getting fired if they think you might even have looked at one? 4) If I could be me, but also have the guts to talk about the elephants, I would be A Better Person. He talks about the elephants, so he is A Better Person. 

Did that comparison hold together? It felt like it did.

P.S. Add on top of that that a huge chunk of the "lies" are puffery, which amounts to telling his supporters that it is ok to feel good about themselves and good about their country. This started in earnest with the claims about inauguration attendance and continues, for example, with any suggestion that we might be doing anything half-decent with our Covid response. When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away 1) I guess the libs really do want us to feel bad about our country. 2) They really think it would be horrible if I felt good about myself for even a minute. 3) They are ok judging me when they know nothing about me. 

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 11:19 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com> > wrote:

My solution is to elect Biden and to use Trump as an example of the kind of person to never elect again.  But that's just me.

Sounds like a partial lobotomy.   I'm game for this... but not sure it is more than "a good start", which of course is, in fact, a good start.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 8:15 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com> > wrote:

> Yes, you could say that government in general and especially lawmakers
> are our superego.  The best common word synonym for superego is
> conscience.  Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own superego
> we need laws and law enforcers.

So right now we are in the midst of a collective id/ego/superego that is
experiencing a dissociative episode, both governmental and social?

to the extent the analogy holds, what is an exit/recovery strategy?

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