[FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

Tue Sep 8 09:33:57 EDT 2020

I doubt this will shed any light on the etymological question but this is a
Country classic that is, or was, heard from the Central Valley of
California to the Hollers of West Virginia to the honky tonks of Texas:

https://youtu.be/4N3iVHxP8FQ

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020, 5:19 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry,  Eric,
>
>
>
> Dumb error on my part.   I didn’t look at the link.
>
>
>
> That alternative explanation for “redneck” looks really good;  I had never
> heard of it.  Of course, the one may be a reference to the other.  But my
> interpretation smacks of Northeastern snootiness, so I suspect the bandana
> explanation is correct.
>
>
>
> Thanks for persisting.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
> *Sent:* Monday, September 7, 2020 4:34 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> So now I am confused, Nick.
>
>
>
> I had always assumed just what you say, that it referred in particular to
> farmers, who out in fields for endless days, bent over ploughs and such,
> get sunburned.
>
>
>
> It was the guy who goes by Beau of the Fifth Column who recited that
> little thing about the West Virginia Miner Revolt as the origin of the term
> as a meme.  Then that museum also claimed it.
>
>
>
> So, understood that it is normally used as a classist designation now.
> But from a philological perspective, I am now curious how it became a thing.
>
>
>
> There is a different post on what this whole thing is that got distilled
> in the RNC convention.  I think it is about what people become under a lust
> for power.  But to make that argument requires time I cannot permit for the
> time being.  Of course everything else in life gets entrained once
> something like this is going on, so I am accepting making an
> oversimplification to try to get at the thing driving the train.
>
>
>
> Who wants power, why they want it, whether they are legitimate in wanting
> it, and the whole question of how the legitimacy of an aim is related to
> the effect on the human character, what it means to lust for something, and
> why that is a term of opprobrium in careful society, and in particular what
> lust becomes when it is for power.
>
>
>
> But as I said, I can’t.  Besides, just my attempt to make sense of a thing
> that won’t yield to sense.  Maybe all empty.
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:18 PM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> <
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi EricS,
>
>
>
> It’s a classist designation, that refers (I suppose) to white people who
> make their living working out of doors.  I suppose it to arise from the
> fact that many of the original settlers of the south were of Scottish /
> Irish descent, and so ill prepared for bright and high southern sun.
>
>
>
> It’s hard to talk about evil without participating in some of it.  If we
> are to defeat trump (and more importantly, the Trumpism that will endure
> after we defeat him) we are going to have to talk about this stuff.  Own
> up.
>
>
>
> Anyway, I’ve probably done enough damage for one weekend.
>
>
>
> Good to hear from you,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,VNlIV0H6_ijgBZ50QvMRueLCKENvHgY-HkEk3P2QMOdrw-ZmGEGqCb1X_9VCsN-XDrLU6-1tssKR8B-yOrCW6hgbRckkq0m6lL4_6tNjKLs2&typo=1>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
> *Sent:* Monday, September 7, 2020 3:39 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> It’s interesting you should have ended your email with that term, Nick.
>
>
>
> I just (in a different medium) learned the meaning of it a few weeks ago.
> But a more complete source is
>
>
> https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2015/05/20/is-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars/
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.yesmagazine.org%2feconomy%2f2015%2f05%2f20%2fis-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars%2f&c=E,1,7FS7EZ5-iRQAb7nQ6yGMY9-ZUPC4WLHj1dIbiX3rQ6iq_GPYOPd_BQ6oEJvs6-1wnRvZDtLzEmQB3mqfq3amHJSGykLbpWFkkuRT5RWl3qKx8U30QwjGnq91FtU,&typo=1>
>
>
>
> It complicates the sense of what you should be concerned about responding
> to.
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2020, at 4:43 PM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> <
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Eric (in your capacity as the one who inspired me to write) and others,
>
>
>
> You can write about “Nick” just so long as you are writing about the
> Transcendental Nick, not the actual one.  Is that clear?  Glen, and I are
> having a discussion on this very point, off line.  Just who is it that we
> are writing to when we write to a list?
>
>
>
> Look, everything you say is true about elephants.  And you are right, I
> don’t get to declaim that there are no elephants, as long a single person
> is behaving as if he sees one.  But remember I was writing about Trump and
> trying to get my head around somebody who forgives Trump for being a liar
> by asserting that “He tells it like it is!”  What could that possibly mean?
>
>
>
>
> When Trump stands by a Vietnam-era soldier’s grave, in the presence of
> that soldier’s father, and says, “I don’t get it; what did they get out of
> it?”  something in me responds, that I have a hard time talking about.   I
> cannot imagine sending my grandchildren to war, particularly not any of the
> wars we have fought in my lifetime.  So, odious as Trump’s expression was,
> in the context in which it occurred, it speaks for a part of me.  Trump
> tells the truth about these nether impulses that some of us harbor.   He
> speaks truthfully of my inner redneck.  He tells it like it is.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,Qy8NYHw061lsW96cG_pMF1nrRGKfNU6lLS-YkDnv6LBuHoM1qEZrSDVqTemL77bGYRCnOlkuVM2kIqGO_j48fBCmiBebqUJSM-Q7fIFH&typo=1>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles
> *Sent:* Monday, September 7, 2020 12:30 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> "The truth he tells is that he sees elephants.  There are no elephants.
> But there are a lot of people who see elephants, and they are weary unto
> death of pretending that they don’t see them. "
>
>
>
> Nope, nope, nope. Anyone else on this list gets to say that, and maybe I
> would even agree with it coming from anyone else, but Nick Thompson does
> not get to say that. Nick must concede that there is *something* those
> people are responding to, and does *not *get to assert "there are no
> elephants." Nick must concede, both as a New Realist and as the type of New
> England Liberal he strives to be, that there is a point of view from which
> there *are *elephants in the room, and that he has some obligation to
> meet the people at the place where that view is, especially if he wants to
> try to talk those people into moving somewhere else. And he can't do that
> while also making a blanket declaration of the non-existence of the
> elephants.
>
>
>
> Nick could be fully consistent with what I have said above while *also *believing
> that the elephant-seeing point of view is (developmentally speaking) some
> sort of unstable equilibrium, and that those people would change when
> exposed to additional aspects of the world -- whereas Nick's own
> non-elephant-seeing point of view is (developmentally speaking) a much more
> stable equilibrium, robust to the effects of wider-world exposure.* The
> problem comes when Nick wants to assert that in a mythic future, when the
> dust of investigation settles, and everyone has experienced all there is to
> experience about the world, the elephant-seeing view will be gone, and only
> the non-elephant-seeing view will remain. (With that being what we are
> shaking our stick at with claims regarding "truth" and "real".) But *if* psychology
> works like the other sciences, that is not what will happen. Rather, in
> that mythic future, we will have mapped out the conditions under which
> elephant-seeing occurs and the situations in which it does not.** This is
> just as the chemist maps out situations in which a given chemical reaction
> occurs and situations in which it does not, and just as a mathematician
> maps out the postulates combinations that lead to certain mathematical
> phenomena. In the end, when the dust of investigation settles, we will
> understand the conditions under which elephant-seeing occurs and the
> situations under which it does not. And when we find ourselves in a world
> that meets elephant-seeing conditions (among the concaphone of conditions
> present at any given time), we must admit that there is a place to stand
> from which elephants will be seen!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *  That is, of course, an empirical assertion, and as Nick tries to share
> aspects of the world with them, those other people will no doubt try to
> share with him, and the robustness of both sides will be tested.
>
>
>
> ** I hope it is clear that "situation" is being used in the broadest sense
> of the word, to include the developmental history of those involved, among
> other factors.
>
>
>
> P.S. I know Nick doesn't like it when messages over the FRIAM list get
> overly personal, but I hope you will all indulge me on occasion, as the
> issues seem pertinent to several past and present discussions on the list.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 1:25 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Eric,
>
>
>
> The truth he tells is that he sees elephants.  There are no elephants.
> But there are a lot of people who see elephants, and they are weary unto
> death of pretending that they don’t see them.   When Trump speaks, they get
> to say, “Oh, you see elephants, too!  I am not the only one!”
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,kj5GsuskdtGLYJiG_gypTrmzfYqCM29zGj49rPdfjZsjAz05Bmsi12AZVMoGKKSYeghTh-lovniZfaK8w10Lk8u5naLTxn9KQcj38OkgXN9PbgRHQc_Xm00-&typo=1>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 11:01 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> "Perhaps I should have said, early on, “Look, I’m sorry, I keep seeing
> you  as Uncle Remus.  I am sure, as I get to know you better, I will get
> over it.  Please be patient with me, and please call me out whenever you
> feel confined by it. ”
>
>
>
> A Liberalism that does not free me is not worth the name."
>
>
>
> It will probably not surprise you to know that I find this narration
> baffling. You definitely *could* say that to him, at any time. There is
> nothing "liberal" about feeling trapped to not discuss something like that.
> If you felt trapped for a bit, not saying anything seems wise. However, at
> some point, you just say it, or give up on the idea that you actually have
> a problem with it. Personally, I'd stay away from an Uncle Remus reference,
> but the whole point here is that the two of you are old, so it might make
> sense in your world. At any rate, the worst case result will be that you
> have been honest with him, and he never spoke to you again. Which is, IMHO,
> a better outcome than your not being honest with him, and he never spoke to
> you again, which seems to be where you are now. Sometimes, certainly not
> always, but sometimes, when I make moves like that in a conversation, you
> later express admiration and/or envy.
>
>
>
> I think this relates to the larger question of what some people see in
> Trump. They see him as constantly pointing out what they (his fans) see as
> the "elephant in the room." Sure, he says a boat load of other things, and
> lots of those things are not true, but those aren't the important things.
> "Why do we want all these people from shithole countries coming here?" is a
> great example of a perceived elephant. "There are good people on both
> sides" is another, as is the recent dust-up about "anti-racist" workshops.
> When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away 1) See I
> was right not to risk saying that myself, because my supposedly friendly,
> supposedly open-minded neighbors would have attacked me just for saying it,
> and maybe even tried to get me fired, because apparently they think my kids
> should go hungry if I think something they don't like. 2) Thank God
> *someone *had the guts to ask the question! 3) What kind of crazy country
> do these libs want to turn us into, with all these elephants wandering all
> around the room, and it's not even enough to not say anything, because now
> you gotta be worried about getting fired if they think you might even have
> looked at one? 4) If I could be me, but also have the guts to talk about
> the elephants, I would be A Better Person. He talks about the elephants, so
> he is A Better Person.
>
>
>
> Did that comparison hold together? It felt like it did.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> P.S. Add on top of that that a huge chunk of the "lies" are puffery, which
> amounts to telling his supporters that it is ok to feel good about
> themselves and good about their country. This started in earnest with the
> claims about inauguration attendance and continues, for example, with any
> suggestion that we might be doing anything half-decent with our Covid
> response. When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away
> 1) I guess the libs really do want us to feel bad about our country. 2)
> They really think it would be horrible if I felt good about myself for even
> a minute. 3) They are ok judging me when they know nothing about me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 11:19 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> My solution is to elect Biden and to use Trump as an example of the kind
> of person to never elect again.  But that's just me.
>
> Sounds like a partial lobotomy.   I'm game for this... but not sure it is
> more than "a good start", which of course is, in fact, a good start.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 8:15 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, you could say that government in general and especially lawmakers
> > are our superego.  The best common word synonym for superego is
> > conscience.  Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own superego
> > we need laws and law enforcers.
>
> So right now we are in the midst of a collective id/ego/superego that is
> experiencing a dissociative episode, both governmental and social?
>
> to the extent the analogy holds, what is an exit/recovery strategy?
>
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