[FRIAM] flu versus COVID

Sat Sep 12 21:35:12 EDT 2020

It has become known today that the MMWR has been altered for political
reasons.  At least they got caught.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 5:11 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> It is the reactive grievance culture that I think needs to be attenuated.
>   Run some diagnostics, analyze, reflect.    Or at least find someone new
> to talk to.   Push some different information through that soggy wetware.
> Appreciate people that are trying to do their job.   Consider the
> possibility that individuals (and that means you, Joe Moron) don't really
> matter in the big scheme of things.    And so on.   If nothing else just
> STFU for a minute, would you?  I can totally see the Rick Gates type
> people:  Everyone is guilty and unworthy, so the only thing left to do grab
> and handful of cash and walk away.
>
> How many dozens of times have I been told to lower the dimensionality of
> what I am trying to communicate up the management chain?  If managers can't
> grasp a complicated story, the worker bees and especially the Trumper types
> certainly won't get it either.   In my mind democracy is more about
> defining what is worthy about civilization and culture and finding basic
> some basic consensus about who we want to be.   If that isn't possible,
> then let's take off the gloves and get to it, you know?   The business of
> running things for the most part has to be delegated, just like almost
> every service and product we use is delegated to others.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:17 PM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] flu versus COVID
>
> Without picking directly on Dave, or using him as a proxy for or maybe
> just a whipping boy for the folks who continue to imagine that having
> Donald Trump and his gang of openly sycophantic and corrupt supporters in
> his cabinet and in Congress is actually a *healthy* thing for this country,
> I think the question of whether humans in general and US Citizens at this
> time, are capable of anything outside of an A) Mobocracy; or B) Oligarchy
> thinly disguised as a Representative Democracy.
>
> I've been guilty of being a very poor voter-citizen by one standard or
> another and order 1/3 or more of my fellow citizens probably have a story
> where I am a total moron/idiot because I don't agree with one or more of
> their trigger-issues.
>
> And talk about persuasion/governance-by-fear:   As a registered DTR
> (declines to respond == independent) voter I've been getting a barrage of
> nasty garbage mail about the presidential election from the Republican
> Party of New Mexico...  maybe they don't waste the postage on registered
> Democrats?  Mary doesn't get these.    You can imagine the crap they insert
> into their imagery and verbage, but  if I didn't have any other source of
> information (or more to the point, primary evidence of Biden and his
> allies' record and public demeanor), I'd think he (and
> they) are everything just short of child molesters who are in the streets
> themselves beating up cops with their own night-sticks, and that the fires
> in Oregon are being started by them personally in Portland and blowing the
> embers out into the forests (that Republicans would rake into safety if
> Democrats would let them).  The photos are perspective foreshortened and
> blue caste to make you feel like the figures shown (e.g. Biden, Bernie,
> Kamala, AOC) are vampires looming over you the way Trump stalked and loomed
> over Clinton at the debates.
>
> I don't know *any* Republicans who are afraid of COVID... well... except
> for my hypochondriac sister and family who seem to have slowly come around
> to have a perspective that aligns pretty well with that of the Dems, yet
> very well may still help (try to) Vote Donald and his cronies right back
> into power (just because?).   Sturgis the community was only 60% against
> holding the annual HD/Trump rally there and only about 10-20% of the usual
> attendees declined this year.   That doesn't sound like fear to me.   I
> don't hear Biden's campaign chanting "Lock them up!" even though it seems
> likely that The entire Trump family , his staff (present and deprecated)
> and some of his cabinet might well be subject to criminal charges without
> the current obfuscation, misdirection, and direct obstruction the
> (implied/implicit?) power of the office of the President seems to allow
> for, hiding the evidence.
>
> I *do* think that a solid 51% up to 60% of the population *are* very
> scared at the quality and quantity of damage to the "America" he promised
> to make "Great Again" if he gets another 4 years...   The Trumpsters like
> to throw out "Trump Derangement Syndrome" left and right (and Left and
> Right) in the attempt to characterize anyone who is offended by anything
> (much less everything) Trump does.
>
> My enemy's enemies are not my friends, but it IS heartening to see the
> significant backlash against Trumpism by many non-liberal, non-Democrat
> factions.   The Lincoln Project might be the most well organized/funded.
> THEY are throwing fear and loathing at Trump... and I"m sure plenty of
> LIberals/Democrats love seeing that... and I suppose I'm just glad I don't
> have to get my own hands dirty (possibly?) overstating Trumps outrageous
> behaviour.
>
> The next 2 months (and 2.5 beyond) will surely prove to be interesting...
>
> - Steve
>
> On 9/12/20 12:42 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > When the populace won't tolerate this the populace won't get this.   But
> mostly people are morons.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 11:33 AM
> > To: friam at redfish.com
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] flu versus COVID
> >
> > Nothing in my post was intended to malign Fauci, nor attack his
> credibility. I did attempt to call him on a specific mistake (one he may
> have later corrected). He is not among the "powers that be."
> >
> > I totally stand by my accusation that "governance by fear" seems to have
> become the default for setting policy  — fear of pornography to justify
> repressive Web policies; fear of drugs to justify repressive regulation on
> use; fear of crime to justify militarization of police; fear of WMD to
> justify Iraq; fear of terror to justify TSA, fear of extinction to justify
> carbon regulation; fear of COVID to justify lock down.
> >
> > I have a real problem with this trend. One, it denigrates and devalues
> the populace as too dumb to understand the real issues, the messiness of
> incomplete but increasing knowledge, and the complexity and provisionality
> of solutions; two, any error, however minor, has the power to call into
> question the whole; and three it is ultimately self-defeating.
> >
> > davew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 12, 2020, at 10:42 AM, glen∉ℂ wrote:
> >> Never ascribe malice (or governance by fear) when incompetence will
> >> suffice. -- paraphrased from some pithy archetype somewhere sometime.
> >>
> >> I was totally with you until the last 2 paragraphs, though I haven't
> >> checked your facts. In my posts about "credibility", I tried to lay
> >> out the idea that someone like Fauci is NOT properly labeled
> >> [in]credible because of any single act/statement or even the truth
> >> status of one or several acts/statements. Credibility comes from
> >> consistent *care*, including revisiting things later and making
> >> attempts to abut or correct previous acts/statements.
> >>
> >> Fauci shows such care. Therefore, Fauci is credible, even if he's made
> mistakes.
> >>
> >> When you talk about ruling through fear, the real culprit is, as
> >> EricS pointed out, the political pressure on people like Fauci to
> >> render opinions *aligned* with some party line. To accuse Fauci of
> >> such in light of the recent news from Woodward's book and the
> >> pressure on CDC rank and file is disinformation. You're focus on the
> >> victim makes your post incredible disinformation, even if (or
> >> especially if) the first part of your post is factual. It's a typical
> >> abuse of facts to foster a false narrative.
> >>
> >> But it's also important to realize we're all, always, susceptible to
> >> such faulty reasoning. Attempts to be diligent and correct in such is
> >> the source of credibility. I was once accused of being a spammer
> >> because I posted too much, even though my accuser admitted the
> >> *content* of my posts were on topic and not spam, the very volume was
> >> offensive to him. This is yet another example of normal people's
> >> small appetite for verbosity. Pithiness, pseudo-profound bullshit,
> >> and false narratives are all aspects of the same beast. It's
> >> impossible to harden ourselves to such risk without holing up in our
> >> echo-chamber dungeons, surrounded by others who've "jumped over the
> >> bar" to be included in our in-group.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/12/20 7:44 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> >>> Sloppy reporting, and sloppy pronouncements — yes, you Dr. Fauci —
> have contaminated the discussion about COVID and appropriate responses.
> Specifically with regard equating or improperly substituting IFR with CFR.
> >>>
> >>> IFR = infection fatality rate
> >>> CFR = case fatality rate
> >>>
> >>> A "case"requires symptoms.
> >>>
> >>> Seasonal flu has an IFR of 0.1% and a CFR of 2-3%
> >>>
> >>> COVID has an IFR of 1.0% [initially WHO and CDC stated a higher
> >>> percent] and a CFR of 2-3%
> >>>
> >>> For whatever reason, Dr Fauci and other official statements have
> compared COVID's CFR to the flu's IFR to assert the "deadliness" of the
> disease and to justify draconian measures.
> >>>
> >>> Naysayers, compare CFR to CFR to assert that COVID is no more deadly
> than the flu. They are correct. With the "TRUTH" on their side, they rail
> against the lock down.
> >>>
> >>> There is a justification for social distancing and masks in the
> difference between IFR and IFR coupled with the higher infection rate of
> COVID and the flu( a lot of flu immunity exists), plus the "infectious
> phase" of 12 days (COVID) instead of 2 (flu).
> >>>
> >>> In my opinion the "powers that be" have such a low opinion of the
> average intelligence of the populace that they misrepresent the data in
> order to scare the crap out of people in order to get them to comply with
> directives instead of making the reasonable and correct, but more nuanced
> and complicated, factual argument for their policies.
> >>>
> >>> Governance by fear seems to be standard operating procedure these
> days. 9-11 yielded the TSA abomination (expensive, ineffective and
> annoying). Can't wait to see what COVID inflicts — especially with the talk
> of "forced vaccinations" I have heard bandied about.
> >>
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