[FRIAM] Chevaline! Was: Dancing Robots
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Sun Apr 4 13:35:37 EDT 2021
Frank -
I'll see your Boston Dynamics and raise you some Frog Skin Cells gone
(sent) rogue.
Frog Skin Cells Gone Rogue
<https://www.sciencenews.org/article/frog-skin-cells-self-made-living-machines-xenobots>
Slime mold move, over, there is a new (maze running) sheriff in town!
And did I mention this already?
Human Skin Cells gone (sent) rogue
<https://www.newscientist.com/article/2271680-human-skin-cells-altered-to-mimic-early-stage-of-embryo-development>.
And I *am* interested in more about your "standard representation". I
understand from your post that you didn't follow the arc of the work
after you left, but perhaps you know more about the "state of the art"
as it did evolve? The problem with a long and interesting (checquered?)
career is that we can't possibly keep up with all the threads we dropped
along the way?
On first reading your task/aspirations in the project sounds more like a
CNC "tool path" than LMA specs (Laban Movement Analysis). I realize
that most of my posts are at least "jesty" if not (intended as) as
Snarky as Marcus' model of "contributors whose names start with S" might
suggest... but I really *am* interested in the implications of
purpose-built languages for specific domains which perhaps represent a
basis for finding generalized abstractions between those domains. For
example, the specification languages for robotic movement vs the
specifications for human dance would seem to be both polar opposites in
some ways, yet would also seem to be "the same domain" (at least at the
level of joint positions, rigid connectors, etc.).
LMA has roots in Eukinetics and Choreutics (roughly effort and harmony),
both of which would seem to *ultimately* be relevant to an evolved
robotics motion protocol... Ed's point about the motors of the era
(late 60s) not being powerful enough for the robotic horse designs they
came up with. Is it possible that a refined understanding of
body/effort/shape/space might yield designs which do NOT require the
implied amount of horsepower (pun/irony intended) for the motors to
drive each hip/knee/wrist ? This all, of course, is the provenance of
SteampPunk literature where it is assumed/imagined that the
scientists/engineers manage to obtain a "clever means" understanding of
the relevant mechanisms with more primitive technology (e.g. Steam,
Brass, Celluloid, ...) than we have today. Did we *need* to have more
advanced (read: Capable, Forgiving, yet-more-Workable) materials and
tools before we could work out these things? The Existence of LMA at
the time (late 60's) would suggest that there may well have been extant
models of space, shape, harmony, kinematics from the world of
Choreography than Engineers and Scientists might have known?
Ed may well have some knowledge/remembrance of such in that era.
Obviously, Muybridge
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eadweard_Muybridge>'s work would have
been strongly referenced if not central? It is hard for me to remember
that all of you half a generation ahead of me were "just kids" (grad
students) back in those days. I only think of them (you) as the mature
professionals in your fields that you were when I met you (or caught
wind of your work/reputations). I don't know who our youngest members
might be here, I think Cody might hold that distinction? We are
definitely long of tooth and grey of beard (apologies to the women) here!
Chevaline!
Mecanique Grenouille
> The last task Raibert mentioned to me before I was promoted and hired
> by another school was to develop a standard representation for the
> "trajectory" of a robot. This would have been a set of time series
> for each "joint" etc.
>
> I wish I hadn't left but I'm sure that task has been accomplished.
>
> F
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 12:58 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com
> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>
> For all the hype, robots are limited in what they can do in your
> home - The Washington Post
> <https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/03/23/future-robots-home-jetsons/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 3, 2021 11:24 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Dancing Robots
>
>
>
> You darned cynics
>
>
>
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/humanoids/darpa-selects-boston-dynamics-humanoid-for-robotics-challenge
> <https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/humanoids/darpa-selects-boston-dynamics-humanoid-for-robotics-challenge>
>
>
>
> https://www.themarlincompany.com/blog-articles/more-robots-workplace/
> <https://www.themarlincompany.com/blog-articles/more-robots-workplace/>
>
>
>
> https://youtu.be/JGNopwFcz3A <https://youtu.be/JGNopwFcz3A>
>
>
>
> I'll find some aiding-the-handicapped examples if you like.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 10:46 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com
> <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>> wrote:
>
> The "dancing" robots certainly are compelling to view, though I
> can see why Gary asked if it was real or memorex (CGI)... there
> was enough uncanny valley going on in their moves to make it clear
> that they were following a prescribed choreography. The
> miniscule detail in the dance moves is what I *think* makes it
> impressive. I am doubting that the proportions and range of
> motion/etc of the robotic humanoids is as close to humans' as
> implied by the constraints (in software, in choreography) imposed.
>
> I also wonder how much of this is essentially driven by something
> like MoCap that is then tweaked to match the dynamical performance
> envelope/constraints of the robot simulacrum? Or by derivation,
> ws ther some kind of machine learning going on on a *suite* of
> human MoCap data sets. Or is there a very capable
> cyber-choreographer who implicitly understands the robot's
> "coupled impedance elements" in a way that allows them to
> hack/hint/nuance the instructions down to this level of performance?
>
> Are these class of robots targeted for mission-spec autonomy or
> are they more targeted to default to being Waldos with some
> self-driving constraints?
>
> I haven't tracked whether the Laban Notation movement has actually
> been useful to extend into robotic-motion... it starts to seem
> relevant once humanoid Robots are presented dancing human-dances.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laban_movement_analysis
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laban_movement_analysis>
>
> The "impressive illusion" is that these Robots are responding to
> the music itself and to one another (couples dancing) in a way
> that seems highly doubtful. They appear to be merely very artful
> puppets with wireless "strings". No small feat, bringing them
> to this point, but the most interesting/impressive aspects are
> likely careful bit-chiseling on the instruction sets.
>
>
>
> It would be more impressive if they were helping an elderly
> person go to the bathroom. Chasing a person in irregular
> terrain would be convincing too.
>
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2021, at 9:00 AM, Gary Schiltz
> <gary at naturesvisualarts.com>
> <mailto:gary at naturesvisualarts.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for letting me know. In that case, it is truly mind
> blowing. I had no idea robotic tech had come so far.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 10:57 AM Frank Wimberly
> <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Real!!
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 9:50 AM Gary Schiltz
> <gary at naturesvisualarts.com
> <mailto:gary at naturesvisualarts.com>> wrote:
>
> Serious question, since I didn't make it to vfriam
> yesterday. With the advances in CGI these days, I
> don't know if this is computer generated or real.
> Which is it?
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 10:02 AM Frank Wimberly
> <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> For those who haven't seen the video that was
> mentioned in yesterday's meeting:
>
>
>
> https://youtu.be/fn3KWM1kuAw
> <https://youtu.be/fn3KWM1kuAw>
>
>
>
> Marc has accomplished a lot since this:
>
>
>
> * Raibert, M. H., Wimberly, F. C. 1984.
> Tabular control of balance in a dynamic
> legged system. /IEEE Trans. Systems, Man,
> and Cybernetics/ 14:334--339.
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
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