[FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Sun Aug 15 17:24:08 EDT 2021
EricS wrote:
> You know what’s fun in this, is the window it gives on the sources of
> people’s finding things compelling: what G.C. Rota called “the
> unthematized” in his writings on phenomenology (philosopher’s sense,
> not science usage).
>
> If so many Eastern traditions hadn’t built up such a sense that all
> this was real, and so many decades had not passed with Westerners who
> didn’t grow up in those cultures being convinced that they were “onto
> something”, the whole Star Wars series would have been a complete meh.
> People would have seen Yoda wave his hand slowly at something and
> have some things move, and probably responded What’s the point?
>
> I have a friend or acquaintance, one Chinese parent (Taiwanese) and
> one Japanese, grew up between the two countries, with also some time
> spent in the US, but not too much formative time. She grew up
> completely unstained by anything from the Christian tradition. She
> tells me that, watching The Exorcist, she finds the famous scene in
> which the girl’s head goes around in a circle vaguely comic, but
> mostly obscure and arbitrary.
>
> As with all things involving consciousness or the vague “sense of
> reality”, it will be hard to get at these things in any systematic way
> that doesn’t seem stilted and bleaching them of whatever makes the
> frameshift in experience interesting. But would be fun if one could
> find a way to do it.
After Gabriel Garcia Marquez (attributed one of the founders of Magical
Realism) died, NPR re-aired an old interview with him that I found
incredibly motivating.
The two main takeaways from the interview were:
A) He spent his days as a child with his grandfather who was an
ultra-rationalist fascinated with the emerging science and industry of
the period (1930s) and in the evenings under the influence of his
grandmother and aunts who held an entirely superstitious/mystical view
of the world and how/why things happened as they did. He claimed to
manage to hold a strong and integrated belief in both world-views in
their own way.
B) The legacy of Columbia and his lineage being descendants of the
Spanish Noblemen who came to the Americas to find their fortune (only
the first son of Nobility would inherit titles and wealth directly) with
the support of family and others of wealth (seeking more). It was
incumbent on these young adventurers to keep "kiting" their stories
forward, telling taller and taller tales and making larger and larger
promises to their "investors" to keep the support flowing until they
either did actually "strike it rich" or until they were so upside down
they couldn't be expected to repay... and were allowed to "retire" in a
distant ignominy after decades of unfulfilled stories and promises.
My own father, raised by an ultra-rational "modern" father found great
solace in the "tall tales" his uncles would tell him while visiting for
weekends or longer in "the hills and hollers of Appalachia". Not only
did he delight in them, he really wanted to believe them. One notable
story was that he was envious of his uncles (and cousins) lush curly
hair, his own father being mostly bald by 30 and he himself easily
influenced. The uncles told him that it was "the water" and they could
"wash his hair curly"... he spent the rest of his time visiting them,
proud of his new head of "curly hair" when in fact, there were simply no
mirrors around for him to see otherwise. Apparently this went on for
many visits where he would go visit to get his "curly hair refreshed".
Another example was when he was younger being told that the youngest
kids had to go to bed early because there weren't enough beds in the
house for everyone, and once they went to sleep, they would get stiff,
they would stand them against the wall while the older kids slept in the
beds. This was aided by the fact that the older kids *did* go to bed
later and get up earlier than the younger ones. His own father was
apparently careful not to contradict the uncles on these stories even
though from what I know of him, it must have galled him to let such
blatant "lies" go uncorrected.
Having hosted a Q-Anon level conspiracy theorist in my home for a year
(5 years ago), I definitely don't accept "all belief systems are equal"
in the way she acted it out (she *was* mildly embarrassed to admit to
listening to Alex Jones, but probably not because she understood how
problematic he was in fact, just in reputation?) Another house-mate
(oil and water/dogs and cats) used to turn to me after she would leave
the room upon making one of her sweeping proclamations (like "I think
everyone should be allowed to believe whatever they want") would turn to
me and say "Tami... I don't want to know what you 'believe', I want to
know what you THINK"). Ed was a very creative artist and had suffered
severe brain damage many years, aggravated by multiple ECT
(electroshock) therapy sessions later to try to renormalize his brain
function, but was also very astute about logical and intellectual
matters even though he also could indulge in a lot of magical/wishful
thinking of his own. I learned a lot by counter/example from both of them.
This rambly reflection is mostly about the more (possibly) important
issue of how we might collectively imagine a (collective) future for
humanity (and other beings including, for example, an entire viable
biosphere?). It seems as if one of the features (illusions) of
consciousness is that conscious beings can apprehend the world we live
in and predict futures within it wherein our *actions do matter*.
Meaning we in some sense get to (have to) choose the future world we
will inhabit in our own personal futures. Extreme optimism and
pessimism run somewhat counter to the pretense that "what we do matters"
in a fundamental way.
- Steve
>
> Eric
>
>
>> On Aug 16, 2021, at 2:50 AM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com
>> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> How about Reiki?
>>
>> Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic
>> <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/>
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>>
>> Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony: ;-)
>>
>> Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting. I am entirely in
>> sympathy with your dilemma.
>>
>> Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful
>> treatment in situations where no other treatment is available. And
>> fabricating evidence of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the
>> patients and the medical staff in that situation. A placebo can be
>> better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus story behind it can be
>> even better.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org
>> <mailto:rec at elf.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Pieter --
>>
>> I looked over the links you listed.
>>
>> They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike
>> in Covid cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin
>> caused the end of the spike in Covid cases. Both of these
>> claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I don't see any
>> evidence that anyone has ever distributed
>> ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or
>> after the spike in infections. Constructing and delivering kits
>> for 1.366 billion people would have been quite an achievement for
>> any economy.
>>
>> I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fc19ivermectin.com%2f&c=E,1,XdygX8tCh96bxh9dyZ539zJZiXPXpIizdysWwW-1DbxT-Ova-SbtDFHiGQw0BOo-A6nD6AZMLz4egXL-c_4juKM8uOZa5yX-1Do37vPm25BV70Q,&typo=1> and
>> found the list of ivermectin studies. The list presented
>> currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer reviewed, 64 involving
>> control and treatment groups, but it's puffed up with another 50
>> entries which are news clippings, press releases, meta-analyses,
>> reviews, and other miscellanea.
>>
>> I looked an early review
>> article, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf
>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf>, though
>> the pdf is hosted atnature.com <http://nature.com/>, it's from a
>> different journal.
>>
>>
>> The Journal of Antibiotics (2020)
>> 73:593–602 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.1038%2fs41429-020-0336-z&c=E,1,86DtBivcmB6jFZMeE6rlaKtevLCwIAONTRPZRtvALOIQ4dFu-rtI2bTqrSZBFqeTa95Gqa8ECOC6VhZCvn69DeJ9wgXZ2cqJ-FpPftae3JBsIw,,&typo=1>
>> Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to
>> COVID-19 complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ● Reza
>> Gharebaghi2,3
>> 1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital, Ahvaz
>> Jundishapur University of Medical Sciences, Ahvaz, Iran
>> 2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran, Tehran, Iran
>> 3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center (IVORC),
>> Austin, TX, USA
>> Abstract
>> Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a range
>> of diseases, with its antimicrobial, antiviral, and
>> anti-cancer properties as a wonder drug. It is highly
>> effective against many microorganisms including some viruses.
>> In this comprehensive systematic review, antiviral effects of
>> ivermectin are summarized including in vitro and in vivo
>> studies over the past 50 years. Several studies reported
>> antiviral effects of ivermectin on RNA viruses such as Zika,
>> dengue, yellow fever, West Nile, Hendra, Newcastle,
>> Venezuelan equine encephalitis, chikungunya, Semliki Forest,
>> Sindbis, Avian influenza A, Porcine Reproductive and
>> Respiratory Syndrome, Human immunodeficiency virus type 1,
>> and severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2.
>> Furthermore, there are some studies showing antiviral effects
>> of ivermectin against DNA viruses such as Equine herpes type
>> 1, BK polyomavirus, pseudorabies, porcine circovirus 2, and
>> bovine herpesvirus 1. Ivermmust beectin plays a role in
>> several biological mechanisms, therefore it could serve as a
>> potential candidate in the treatment of a wide range of
>> viruses including COVID-19 as well as other types of
>> positive-sense single-stranded RNA viruses. In vivo studies
>> of animal models revealed a broad range of antiviral effects
>> of ivermectin, however, clinical trials are necessary to
>> appraise the potential efficacy of ivermectin in clinical setting
>>
>>
>> The quick read is that ivermectin interferes with viral
>> reproduction /in vitro/, but fails to work /in vivo/, for all of
>> these viruses. It's been tried against every virus that's turned
>> up in the last 50 years, had some /in vitro/ anti-viral activity,
>> but never became an approved treatment for any of them.
>>
>> It must be that the elites are consipring. That's the only
>> reasonable explanation for the facts.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM Pieter Steenekamp
>> <pieters at randcontrols.co.za <mailto:pieters at randcontrols.co.za>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Nick,
>>
>> Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear.
>> Let me rewrite it with a change in wording, I hope it's
>> better this time.
>>
>> I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above
>> , https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>> <https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid> ,
>> is most probably correct.
>>
>> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific
>> protocol, there are no benefits against covid in using
>> ivermectin. Does that mean that there are no other
>> prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give
>> benefits?
>>
>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India.
>> According to some (see references below), the use of
>> ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I really
>> don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
>> better information? I'd like to know.
>>
>> References:
>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.worldometers.info%2fcoronavirus%2fcountry%2findia%2f&c=E,1,gAFyJzVYT4r6283fIPNrO1P1rwhOdfXKKeCeDNTqGrGOJt0raWdzdl9gOZtpxKgF-pXSEByyKO0OyBNuH9sKQMVMbvrNfn97-SIb_pyzjoWcuPwTMSjnL9U,&typo=1>
>>
>>
>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fassets.researchsquare.com%2ffiles%2frs-208785%2fv1%2fd6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf&c=E,1,oeVmbB67kzl0ucocId_zhufG0EAjZcUSaapwFk90q-3youURG4d7Vo-n4EL5DsZvwzekC5AZCXVKWMKH7XH1rMuUbOqcdscUUBcw9HjOjAbk1NOPdg,,&typo=1>
>>
>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>> <https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/>
>>
>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fnonvenipacem.com%2f2021%2f07%2f31%2findia-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too%2f&c=E,1,PZmGzQ8ARuaYqfZ1QFTmwz7QkqAqpqm4IYr3_8aM-pQ-KbOEieJouJcOpzYYo7kkhD_nvM7f-dtAMhD5djk0lrcYlsVhPlQtE8SOMWeZK3xQLSL7TEAJ&typo=1>
>>
>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2f2021%2f05%2felites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use%2f&c=E,1,KHTQaNY3zpXNPgoMU88GPaoOdjCnqgJoHgbvJ9jfR1OQ16JBvGV2L5OYFakFs6d__QjsVGY0kfZoV8F0hPFR0tPin8tVV8_jqdAuEJfQ6oRIJG4,&typo=1>
>>
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Pieter
>>
>> Did you perhaps leave out a link? Which study?
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,de30HVsmBU2s1ajpYmYcEQJkfmxJvpXE_am5aFwknHPDiqEu3NHj-OBR7d9RNtEtbDTlMZmXhULoKgFYN8put3DQbHi3VQJ2bxAdIYuwONQ,&typo=1>
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Pieter
>> Steenekamp
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>>
>> I believe this study is most probably correct.
>>
>> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a
>> specific protocol, there are no benefits against covid
>> in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there are no
>> other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
>> do give benefits?
>>
>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India.
>> According to some (see reference below), the use of
>> ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I really
>> don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone
>> have better information? I'd like to know.
>>
>> References:
>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.worldometers.info%2fcoronavirus%2fcountry%2findia%2f&c=E,1,jqnkAJkh2jIevxHy-QJvW6YeYQPJ7Kg_qAMO1vFyJTipWkxxgGXWhNxVCa_Weg0uqWv4X7CWLA2AqiBDTRbDB6S1y3LPONm04qvlqd2BpKGsouk,&typo=1>
>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fassets.researchsquare.com%2ffiles%2frs-208785%2fv1%2fd6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf&c=E,1,fgO97fdJK3VrSSFkmarymDQ1gDfYRzp0-_vYVkAPD0qgkP7K0O8SOBYzBzHKUtdrn7bOPt8KsWNfX_Y0_wns4_JF1YLhBHnZX2XgZXDG2rx1jA,,&typo=1>
>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>> <https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/>
>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fnonvenipacem.com%2f2021%2f07%2f31%2findia-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too%2f&c=E,1,kcbwGfnH2f7GEE6YkYlnmnvbr7l4MFF51Ay9x7wP4_1GcbH14f7LIfV5N5gzg2q6V6Elt4RA9L0v_iF3kCvtZNz2W7CYfJPNG_rH1jiWBWnPPPDkCInLqFg,&typo=1>
>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2f2021%2f05%2felites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use%2f&c=E,1,u3QStCzK06ZjcQziwwrfk_uK5n0JmZo6MO7U4kmYYgWpAX5YaeEJADWTCUZwRTeVzdY7DZ1h_tTcZDKzf-i4VeCjzTfyu8yrzgvBmDeeDsryjMDNEELynQ,,&typo=1>
>>
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels
>> <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>> <https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid>
>>
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