[FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

A public servant remarked to me that their boss mostly does things to pacify unreasonable people.  This in turn encourages more unreasonable behavior.   The agency of the unreasonable people is characterized by how much disruption they can cause, not by the inherent value of the goals that they have.  The goals are just a temporary means by which to demonstrate their agency and process their feelings of alienation.   I suggest that this neediness at some point becomes toxic and cannot be repaired.   At a company, those people get fired.

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 3:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, from others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the joint effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility.

The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc.

I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point, though.  This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or contempt for it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency.

Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this.  We have to break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if we are to break out of the death spiral.

Eric




On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm<mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm>> wrote:


Explain themselves to _____? To you? For the purpose of _______?  Securing your approval?



On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their lives risky and inconvenient until they do.

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side


Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute assertion.

However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican).

In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that
> conflation. I don't.
>
> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished.
> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on
> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with
> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of
> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil
> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The
> story of Job is a stupid story.
>
> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning,
> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I
> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of
> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the
> slightest sense of that word.
>
> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.
> >
> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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