[FRIAM] bad covid story

Mon Dec 27 13:40:14 EST 2021

Man.... for someone who has repeatedly told me, when we are in zoom, about
how you can share a beer with a racist skinhead, and come to find some sort
of sympathetic understanding of the reasoning of where they are coming
from... it is baffling the situations where you take exactly the opposite
line.

As per the post from a year ago: If I'm a doctor, and there's a dude
covered in swastikas, and times are normal, then I probably treat him for
his injuries just like I treat anyone else for their injuries. If we are in
an emergency situation, where triage is going to have to happen one way or
another, then that dude might not be my top priority. I might not be ok,
because of the overall situation of dealing with a sustained emergency, but
that decision sure wouldn't be why I was worried about myself. If someone
is for sure going to get subpar treatment today - because we lack
the resources to do otherwise - then it might as well be that guy.
<echarles at american.edu>

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 1:24 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:

> What process do we use to vet the "ministers"?
> Do we need policies and procedures for things like "aura massage"?
> Do you remove the ventilator to give them the pill?
> How much does "whatever that method may be" cost? And who will pay for it?
> How much should doctors' and nurses' and finance staff *practice* their
> proper scripts for what they can and can't say to patients? 10 hours per
> week? Just in med school?
> How many edge cases should doctors have to *calculate* through to handle
> wackos like anti-maskers? What about, say, Christian Scientists? How
> complex do the logic diagrams need to be?
> How do we set the standard for *when* to tell family members the patient
> died? Who sets that standard? What committee?
> Should the doctor wear body armor or have a body guard present when
> informing the family of a death? How much do we pay for such things? Does
> the body armor have to be sterilized? Are the body guards unionized? Who
> pays for their liability insurance? Should they carry guns?
>
> Pffft. As I said, you're being ridiculously idealistic. It's fine to
> engage in wishful thinking and dream of unicorns. But don't use that as an
> excuse for idiots who cause more problems than they solve. Moreover, don't
> use your magical thinking to apply a guilt trip to an already stressed
> workforce.
>
>
>
> On 12/27/21 10:11, Eric Charles wrote:
> > Letting people try long shot, even mystical attempts, to save a person
> we are virtually certain is going to die is less cruel. (If we can let
> ministers pray with patients, we can give them a Vitamin D pill.)
> >
> > Finding a way to let people see their dying family member, whatever that
> method may need to be, is less cruel. (The idea that the doctors have to
> calculate the risk of being accused of murder if they arrange it is a
> negative aspect of the situation, not a positive one.)
> >
> > When you are virtually certain a patient is going to die, not saying "I
> won't won't let you die" is less cruel. (It is cruel to the patient, it is
> cruel to the family, and, frankly, the idea that anyone should have to say
> such lies is cruel to the person saying the lie.)
> >
> > Not going out of your way to convince a family to come to the
> hospital if you know you won't let them in, is less cruel.
> >
> > Not seeking them out while they are still in fight-mode, to tell them in
> person that the patient died, is less cruel.
> >
> > Being prepared for extremely negative reactions in situations where
> extremely negative reactions are likely to occur, is less cruel.
> >
> > Not blaming them for your leaving the profession, after a series of
> unforced errors on your part, is less cruel.
> >
> > Do you remember the UK case with Alphie Evans? When the doctors decided
> the kid should have to stay and die in a UK hospital, rather than be
> transferred to a hospital where doctors wanted to try a long-shot
> treatment? Alfie Evans not allowed to leave country, UK court says | CNN <
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/25/health/alfie-evans-appeal-bn/index.html> That
> was about as dystopian and cruel as health care rules can possibly get, and
> it followed all the laws and statutes and policies that existed for
> rational reasons. As a fan of dystopian stories, I can assure you that it
> is common for them to feature bureaucracies following rationally
> constructed laws and statutes.
> >
> > I do agree with Marcus that it would have been much better if the family
> had proactively identified someone who would more closely follow the
> treatment path they wanted. I don't know what the initial path to
> hospitalization was.
> >
> > <mailto:echarles at american.edu>
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:28 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     This is unadulterated bullshit. Sure, perhaps in some ideal world,
> where all people are rational and all systems are frictionless, "the
> process could have been much less cruel". It's bullshit in Frankfurt's
> sense because it's not quite a lie and it's not quite the truth. And given
> your (EricC) ability to think clearly and pay attention to detail, we can
> only assume you *know* it's bullshit.
> >
> >     If it could have been much less cruel, then please suggest the
> concrete modifications to the current byzantine set of laws, P&Ps, cultural
> norms, agency recommendations, political forces, etc. that would get us
> from here to there. (Not the impractical nonsense in your bullets like
> patients' family members prescribing meds that nurses will administer.
> Really? Sheesh.) If you cannot get us, practically, from where we are now
> to that less cruel place, then you're just blowing idealist smoke.
> >
> >
> >     On 12/27/21 09:18, Eric Charles wrote:
> >      > Even if, by the time the story starts, he was going to die no
> matter what happened, the process by which that happened could have been
> much less cruel.
> >     --
> >     glen
> >     Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.
> >
> >
> >     .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --.
> .- - .
> >     FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> >     Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam <
> http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
> >     un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com <
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>
> >     FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <
> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/>
> >     archives:
> >       5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ <
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/>
> >       1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ <
> http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- -
> .
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> > archives:
> >   5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> >   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
> --
> glen
> Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20211227/a117ed1b/attachment.html>