[FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Tue Feb 9 14:50:13 EST 2021

F

And what is the feeler you are using when you feel them and what exactly is that feeler feeling?  I assume your answer will be that you are using your feeling feeler and what the feeling feeler is feeling is feelings.  (};-)]

N

PS Glen (at least) is going to dope-slap us for having in public the same stupid argument again.  But I do so enjoy it.

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Emotions are what I feel.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
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505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 12:31 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

I might agree with Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it.  

Thanks, all. 

n

Nick Thompson
ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.

In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011

[⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).

On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> About to be published.
> 
> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
> 
> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
> 
> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
> 
> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is 
> that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
> 
> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon 
> <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/
> 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick 
> Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
> 
> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

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