[FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

[Jochen Fromm]

Actually I like this question more than Mark Solms' book. Who is the feeler that feels? I think we can imagine the feeler as a kind of jury in the society of mind which judges the situation on behalf of the genes (for every subjective sport like ice skating or dancing there is such a jury).I am not convinced Mark Solms has solved an important riddle. It is true that we feel the way we do because our genes have created emotions, an adaptive ancient control mechanism for us. In the moments when we are conscious of ourselves we are like a self-driving car that wakes up.But I wouldn't say that emotions alone solve the riddle of consciousness. It is rather the path dependence of emotions which leads to subjective experience, as we have discussed many times before. A subjective experience which we can start to understand in cinemas (which is one reason why we like them).The problem is the moment I become conscious of myself is also the moment where I am confused and have no longer a clear assessment of the situation, because the relation between the environment and me as a part of it is now in the center of attention.And this relation not only creates contradictions, it is also the foundation of emotions, if emotions are defined as "assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it".Paradoxically consciousness gives us the ability to perceive ourself, but it also causes the ultimate confusion. It is enabling us to act independently of our genes, but also interferes in our ability to do so unless we are part of a larger group which tells us what to do. -J.
-------- Original message --------From: thompnickson2 at gmail.com Date: 2/9/21  20:51  (GMT+01:00) To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam at redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms F And what is the feeler you are using when you feel them and what exactly is that feeler feeling?  I assume your answer will be that you are using your feeling feeler and what the feeling feeler is feeling is feelings.  (};-)] N PS Glen (at least) is going to dope-slap us for having in public the same stupid argument again.  But I do so enjoy it. Nick ThompsonThompNickSon2 at gmail.comhttps://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Frank WimberlySent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:41 PMTo: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms Emotions are what I feel.---Frank C. Wimberly140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505505 670-9918Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 12:31 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:I might agree with Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it.  Thanks, all. nNick ThompsonThompNickSon2 at gmail.comhttps://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/-----Original Message-----From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ???Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PMTo: friam at redfish.comSubject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark SolmsThanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011[⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:> About to be published.> > From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:> > Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.> > Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.> > Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is > that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.> > Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon > <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/> 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick > Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)> > "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/--↙↙↙ uǝlƃ- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listservZoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.comFRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listservZoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.comFRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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