[FRIAM] Acronyms

David Eric Smith desmith at santafe.edu
Wed Jan 27 12:19:43 EST 2021 

Hi Nick,

There’s a certain libertarian rhetorical flourish that (to my ear) takes the form of defiantly asserting that nobody should expect you to give a damn about anybody else.  But often people to whom indulging in that flourish is important are people who are quite concerned about right action, even at the same time as THEY REALLY DON’T LIKE TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO.

Okay, so the world’s complicated.

A society with no ethos that I am sometimes my brother’s keeper degrades — I believe — eventually to an arena of sociopaths.  Mostly even in our worst conditions we are not that.  There have been some examples in history that start to approximate it, and by comparison we can see that we are not near there yet.

So why dissemble?  Dissembling is another vanity, which gets in the way of trying for clarity.  To do it for art, for entertainment, for the joy of expression, all good; we want life to have ample space for all those.  But if clarity is an objective, to say that, yes, I was born human, and you are human, and that saddles me with certain not only options, but responsibilities of inhibition to care for your wellbeing, gives a report of what you can expect from me.  Expectations are important in the domain of non-cooperative (in the technical, game-theoretic sense) domain of actions.  

So, only that I find the importance of that style odd.

Eric


> On Jan 27, 2021, at 11:56 AM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi, Eric,
>  
> Can you say a bit more?  I didn’t follow.  If it’s obvious, somebody could just take pity on me and write me off line.
>  
> n
>  
> Nick Thompson
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,oTWQ6f3rapztElVX--SJNLRw3-TwPwxKm2W2jOwzlc7BSxR1R5VelmCKaAVimO60kHy_Z9jc8_PxMHKUYmmRT4TjoicvR8TiTVLzZU4B1nGTWgD_UOI,&typo=1>
>  
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:54 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>  
> I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in following it.
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu>> wrote:
>>  
>> An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> Nick,
>>>  
>>> "I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on FRIAM."
>>>  
>>> A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes legislating.
>>>  
>>> But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.
>>>  
>>> davew
>>>  
>>>  
>>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that you can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that you don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you attentively listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on FRIAM. 
>>>>  
>>>> You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)
>>>>  
>>>> However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at engaging them.
>>>>  
>>>> Nick
>>>>  
>>>> Nick Thompson
>>>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,bta9UWO0tN3h5jdaTwk3lVb6V2StIFgDn8R4YlJvylk2j2NV0QTwoEqVLuV_SiMM-GgMLLo5VNi8CE0-zKlFovQfSZlSC0MwI0seCIAWDLo,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM
>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, I suppose I follow  a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being paid or whatnot:
>>>>  
>>>> 1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as there was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to them, they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it.
>>>>  
>>>> 2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially cares that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon.  Say, if the speaker is engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where they have some skin in the game.  
>>>>  
>>>> 3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.
>>>>  
>>>> Marcus
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM
>>>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>>>>  
>>>> Well, generally that is the paradox.  But the narcissism I am talking about is INTRA group narcissism  -- writing a post that one knows damn well only 2 members of the group will understand.   We are a sufficiently broad group that I imagine that if we developed a language understood by most of us, it would also be understood by a lot of other people. 
>>>>  
>>>> But there is value to narcissism that might be lost if we tried to standardize.  That you all understand me is an illusion that helps me to write, and when I write, thoughts happen that I did not plan on happening.  Even if NONE of you understood, that would be a gain for me.  I think many of us write to the list in this delusional way, and I can't claim that that's altogether a Bad Thing.
>>>>  
>>>> Nick
>>>>  
>>>> Nick Thompson
>>>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,ESdb80SJH_TwaTmvG9Uk5oZhrH-1Bhnrw7bS0eoiFMmvuv2zb7fbD06amSmSye5OF2rkvWZJEgpzLcIMjr_XZQXhsR76-FhwrdsNK0m5_Fy2&typo=1>
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 12:46 PM
>>>> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>>>>  
>>>> IDK, man. This contribution rings a bit hollow. Jargon, insider jokes and words, etc. all serve group cohesion. Coming from Nick, who sporadically talks of FriAM as important *as a group*, including attempts to formulate some threads as coherent presentable things, it seems good, generalized/popularized, communication is antithetic.
>>>>  
>>>> But it *does* bode well for treating forum posts as public essays rather than intra-group chatting ... which I've argued is the case. A flaw in my argument, that those who disagree with me have yet to point out, is that despite being publicly available on Nabble, it's not really a public forum. It's not widely read. We *do* use obComplexity jargon just to titillate each other. Etc. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to viewing these posts as public essays is that we don't have a standard set of rules (like Frank's) posts are expected to follow.
>>>>  
>>>> So, the classical mathetists among us will argue that you can't have your cake and eat it. Either we're a group of insiders, a tribe, or this is a publication medium which should have some associated rules. Perhaps that's the paradox Nick's after?
>>>>  
>>>> On 1/26/21 10:19 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > This correspondence has been an example of it self.  Narcissism is the
>>>> > enemy of communication.
>>>> > 
>>>> > I suppose there is SOME sense in putting obscurities in email blasts to the list and clasping to your bosom anybody who happens to understand you. (I did that with my recent supervenience post and got one answer that was tremendously helpful)  It’s like hitchhiking, then;  you only need one ride.  But while it makes some sense, as a general strategy of communication,  isn’t it a bit pathetic, after all? Isn’t there some paradox in communication that is designed to be exclusive?
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> --
>>>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
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> 
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