[FRIAM] of straw and steel
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Tue Jul 6 11:14:01 EDT 2021
EricS -
Great and elaborate response to Merle's points/questions as posited.
I'm probably less versed in the jargon that you address than you are,
certainly after your dive into it for this response.
Your reference to "Soil and Health" and Leopold's life's work reminded
me that my own father was trained up (as much as anyone might be) in the
40's into the 50's on the best ecological understanding of the time,
ultimately in pursuit of Forest and Range Management (USDA/USFS style)
and conveyed to me the underlying structure/dynamics of a "circular
ecology", yet somehow this eluded him entirely when he embraced Reagan's
"trickle down" economics in the 80s. He went on to be a Rush Limbaugh
and Fox/Faux News fan. What would Aldo think of all that? The tie
between ecology and economy is so evident that perhaps it is easy to miss?
I liked particularly your point about the Buddhist premise that "misery
is not a goal". When I first heard of a "donut" economy, my mind went
straight to a torus, not an annulus, and imputed lots of possible
complex structures elaborating "circular" into things like helices on
the surface of a torus. Alas, I was overthinking. I *don't* know
what to think about your observation (assertion) that our human
population may well exceed the carrying capacity *even* on the inner
boundary of the annulus. For me this, suggests that we are not
thinking smart enough. I don't dispute that human population has risen
to an extravagant level and that we may well be simply overwhelming the
petri dish that is the earth systems.
What I want to explore is whether our first world, high-technology view
of "minimum necessary for comfort" is biased toward fundamentally
usurious/exploitative sub-systems? I drive an EV (2011 Chevy Volt)
because I was raised in a car-culture which takes it for granted that a
200+ lb human needs a 3000-6000 lb shell of steel and glass wrapped
around them while they hurtle through the air at 60+mph for 10 or 20 or
50 miles each way to go to work or fetch a quart of milk. I take for
granted that the electric grid (in my case operated by Jemez Valley
Electric Coop that came to be *after* WWII) is an infinite source of
power for me to draw from *to* provide motive force (and AC/Heat/Stereo)
to hurtle along with the greatest of ease. I often ignore the fact
that said Electric Grid spins turbines in a dam just upriver from me in
Abiquiu Lake, lowering the water levels even more than perhaps
irrigation alone would require. Even more acutely, my suck on the grid
spins turbines in the coal-fired plant in the 4 corners area, spewing
sulfurous smoke and CO2 into the already overburdened atmosphere. Some
here (and many elsewhere) will insist that we have not *begun* to load
the atmosphere/biosphere overmuch, but *most* scientists will disagree
strongly with that position. Yet, I glibly treat the 40 miles of range
my (extended range) EV gives me as "free lunch". I sometimes make up
an excuse to run to the store, just to run the batteries down so I can
refill them overnight for *more free lunch*. Tell that to the people
living under the cloud of smoke, or experiencing the subsidence of the
land from the water drawn to sluice the coal from Kayenta to
Kaipowarowitz, etc.
I also grow a few vegetables in my sunroom/backyard and keep a few
chickens to turn my ragweed into high-quality egg-protein... but I
*still* purchase an inestimable amount of food (and other) products at
my local grocery which definitely doesn't source locally. I'm sucking
as hard at the California Central Valley aquifer as I am at the one
under Kayenta, AZ. And the plastic accretion in the Pacific Gyre? I
doubt I am clean of that either. For every 1000 grocery bags I return
to the store or stuff neatly inside one another before sending to the
landfill, at least one probably finds it's way there. And if not there,
it is surely caught on the barbed wire of a fence somewhere nearby. I
see them all the time... I'm *sure* they are *somebody else's* trash,
not mine!
Regarding the solutions we have spent centuries (millennia) to build,
I'm very much with you. The genome does not discard old tricks
easily... they may disappear entirely through some kind of attrition
via disuse, but little is discarded, no matter how much is redacted or
elided from use in any given epoch. This is why I'm a fan of
alternative wisdoms (vaguely similar to DaveW's position perhaps)...
whether it is the Eastern portfolio (Taoism, Confusionism, Vedism,
Buddhism, etc) or the Ibrahamics and their precursors (Zoroaster
anyone?) or the divine Feminine or the myriad Pantheons of yore. I'm
not a crystal-gazer by any means, but that does not mean I can entirely
dismiss the myriad ideas and perspectives that come from the (presumed)
fringe.
I also appreciate your point about "development", but with the
ever-standing caveat of "developing what" and "toward what
goal/end/values?". I contend that Science is about "asking the right
question" ever so much more than "finding the best answer". We are on
the cusp of (yet another) reformulation/refactoring of many of the
questions we thought were "the right ones". In the 80's for example,
my engineering brain was busy noodling on how/whether our fossil-fuel
economy could achieve zero net pollution by somehow magically
transforming HC chains and atmospheric O2 into pure H2O and CO2.
Surely someone besides Exxon knew that releasing all that dinosaur juice
into the atmosphere was going to lead to global-scale problems? I was
blithely (belligerently) not-listening until at least a decade or two
after I *could* have heard the early warning system going off. After
our visit to Sweden in 2019, I was taken by Tomas Bjorkland's (Iskaret
Institute) writings, including "the Nordic Secret" which by title
sounded like some kind of Nazi apologism, but instead turned out to be a
glimpse into what "cultural development" through "individual
development" might look like. I don't think it is "the answer", but as
"an answer" it might gesture toward "the right question" regarding
individual/cultural development.
A strong complementary perspective to the myriad variants of our
"economies" is the "gratitude economy" as demonstrated through hundreds
of anecdotes, personal and cultural, in Robin Wall Kimmerer's writings
(in particular Braiding Sweetgrass
<https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17465709-braiding-sweetgrass>).
Instead of exchanging goods and services based on a sense of "what is in
it for me", she outlines a perspective of "I've already recieved my gift
from the world/universe/community, what can I give back in return out of
gratitude" vs the variations on straight bartering, or keeping ledgers
or exchanging tokens of IOU/UoweMe valuation.
I loved the imagery of Locke and Hume escorting Melville's ship. It is
relevant that Melville's work represents the "first oil boom" which
presaged (and was a precursor to) the fossil fuel boom that fueled and
lubricated the modern industrial revolution.
- Steve
On 7/5/21 3:57 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> Hi Merle,
>
> The terms you cite are not jargon for me so I will lack the
> familiarity with the social circle that uses them today that you have.
>
> The priorities under the name “circular economy” sound like things I
> know through readings like Sir Albert Howard’s The Soil and Health,
> which Howard structures around what he calls “the law of return”, or
> points made by Aldo Leopold in A Sand County Almanac. The feeds I
> have had on this come mainly through people at the Leopold Center for
> sustainable ag at Iowa State, which the Rs finally managed to
> completely cut off from any public support in 2017, effectively
> killing it off after many decades in which it was a paradigm maker.
> In some sense one would consider this the commonsense foundation of
> all understanding of ecology, and the premise that any long-term
> sustainable economy must have this aspect of ecological design. So I
> tend to take these as a common starting point for discussion, and want
> to get to the places we get snagged of stuck, which keep us from
> following them out.
>
> On Doughnut, I see from Wikipedia the paper for Oxfam from which the
> term was coined. The parts of that that I think I have spent the most
> time on are the steady-staters, like Herman Daly (who is the Doyen as
> far as it has been presented to me) and then later-generation
> followers of mostly-Herman’s ideas, like Joshua Farley or Peter
> Victor. But I think there is a very large community of steady-staters
> now, and all of them would also take as their premise the start in
> planetary boundaries. I think they also would follow a sort of
> Buddhist practicality that misery is not a goal; one wants enough
> sustenance to not be in material desperation as a starting point,
> though with too-large population even the realizability of that
> becomes debatable.
>
> I tend not to prefer throwing out things that took centuries to build,
> as solutions to other problems that we forget when we no longer live
> under them, as beyond reform and incorrigible. (RBG’s throwing away
> the umbrella because you are not getting wet.) I won’t use keywords
> like Bretton Woods because I lack the depth to understand the
> implications that go into them in the current political discourse.
> But education for skills, including difficult, narrow, or abstract
> ones, is something that I think contributes to a good life and not
> something I want to lose.
>
> If I had to summarize my own view of the goal and the problem, I would
> probably start by saying there are three resources available
> (referring to individual people) but needing investment to develop:
> talent, character, and preparation. To really get the best life and
> community out of talent, we need large diversity of opportunities at
> all stages, because talent undiscovered through experience never even
> has a chance to get developed. Then we also need many choice-points
> to change tracks, so that talents that can get recognized in any of
> the vast diversity of areas where people could have them can then be
> followed out. Character and community and those things are probably
> not so much in need of system design, as of cultural reinforcement
> along lines that are broadly appreciated in long-standing traditional
> discourse. Preparation requires design of whole life-course
> pipelines, and that again is an institutional matter. It is good to
> recognize that talents and character have independent existence from
> preparation, but would be very wrong to suppose that preparation
> doesn’t matter. Trying to affirmative-action our way to some better
> solution at a few points in higher ed, in a society that creates
> vastly unequal opportunities across the whole developmental course,
> limits the best outcomes we can get. It reminds me of using
> medications to manage diabetes and heart disease, rather than having a
> life and a diet that don’t create those diseases in the first place.
> The medications are better than morbidity and mortality, but a long
> life of medicated ill-health is not what we should settle for. The
> universities try to reach back and support other ed levels here and
> there, which again counts for something. But ultimately what is
> required is a public commitment, and the universities alone are too
> small to have control over what needs to be moved.
>
> In looking at the reviews to the two books on Meritocracy, I felt like
> I was back in Moby Dick, reading Melville’s summary of Locke and Hume
> as two whales on either side of the ship. Would be good to read them
> both. Would be good to have breathing space to read anything….
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>> On Jul 6, 2021, at 6:06 AM, Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com
>> <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> David, you have highlighted education as a problem to "solve" within
>> our present economic system. It's too late to "fix" the Bretton
>> Woods system. We have to build a new one, which opens up many
>> adjacent possibilities that are now beyond reach. What do you think
>> about the new models (not really new but possibly transitional) like
>> the "Circular economy" or the "Doughnut economy"?
>>
>> ideas
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 1:02 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu
>> <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Merle,
>>
>> From what I have read or heard, the return in benefit per cost
>> for social mobility is much higher for community colleges than
>> for even state-school university-style higher-ed, and their costs
>> have (I think) remained fairly contained. So if we were to ask
>> where we could spend money now and help a lot without the delays
>> and wrestling of a system restructure, that seems to be a sure one.
>>
>> I was concerned that for higher ed as for medical stuff, public
>> funding is only achievable sustainably if it is done together
>> with reduction of costs. This was what bothered me in the
>> sound-bite level descriptions during the presidential campaigns,
>> though as I understand e.g. Sanders’s current position, he is
>> advocating for community colleges at least for now, so
>> reasonable. I am reluctant to support public payment of a
>> thoroughly corrupted system, because that just ratifies and
>> bankrolls it, which is where we have been in agriculture for so
>> many decades.
>>
>> EricC’s note was for me very helpful, but it throws me back into
>> a confusion. If need-based aid is the main driver of cost
>> inflation, and the need-based aid is what we are trying to keep,
>> then what are the elements we can change to remove needless
>> costs? I think back to the fact that I paid about 12k/year as an
>> undergrad, in the middle 1980s, for an education that was
>> arguably as good as could be had anywhere in the world. I had
>> 2k/year scholarships through my mother’s company, which seemed a
>> lot to me (as a kid from nowhere who knew nothing), and I could
>> earn 3k in a summer doing simple technical work for a land
>> surveyor. Add another 4k/year in loans, and the remainder was a
>> payment my parents could afford. (I remember, though, years of
>> rage by my father toward the end of my high school, when he was
>> terrified it would be an amount he could not afford.) When I
>> read that state schools are routinely costing 65k/year sticker
>> price, and the private non-profits even worse, I don’t know how
>> to get my head around what-all has been built in such a different
>> way that it drives all those costs but seems an inoperable
>> disease, infused throughout the patient. Some is just dollar
>> value-reduction, but when I hear about a whole generation of kids
>> coming out of school with hundreds of k$ loans, it seems
>> completely incomparable to the 12-13k I had, with deferred
>> interest accrual, and which I could pay back out of a graduate TA
>> stipend if I was very frugal, by about the time I got out of grad
>> school. So I didn’t even end up paying an interest overhead on it.
>>
>> I would be dismayed to see the discussion go back into the
>> conventional sound-bites of “too much regulation”, though I
>> believe most university administrators will assert that is a
>> large source. I don’t rule out that regulatory bloat and bad
>> design is a problem, though I am inclined to view it more as I
>> would view software bloat and bad design: we understand what
>> priorities drive it, but that doesn’t mean either that there
>> isn’t a need for some kinds, nor does it imply that under
>> different priorities it could be done better.
>>
>> Would be good to see a nuts-and-bolts comparison of system
>> elements across countries, to see what can be different and how
>> cost and performance are affected by each change.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 6, 2021, at 4:14 AM, Merle Lefkoff
>>> <merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Am I the only one who thinks all higher education (before grad
>>> school--and maybe even that too) should be free in a rich
>>> democratic (sort of) society? I'm not sure how to avoid the
>>> issue of who gets to go--merit is the sticky wicket. I also
>>> think we need to re-institute the draft. Both of these
>>> initiatives might help to even things out.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 10:38 AM Barry MacKichan
>>> <barry.mackichan at mackichan.com
>>> <mailto:barry.mackichan at mackichan.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I can endorse both Sandel’s /Tyrrany of Merit/ and
>>> Wilkerson’s /Caste/. Also I highly recommend Wilkerson’s
>>> earlier book, /The Warmth of Other Suns/ about the great
>>> migration in the early 20th century of blacks from the south
>>> to the north and California. An interesting factoid is how
>>> important Lordsburg was to those going to California.
>>>
>>> I haven’t decided what to /do/ with the knowledge I got from
>>> these books, but it is hard to ignore it.
>>>
>>> —Barry
>>>
>>> On 2 Jul 2021, at 21:33, thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> EricS,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Have you looked at Sandel’s */Tyranny of Merit/* or
>>> Wilkerson’s */Caste/*?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If on thinks hard enough about “merit” it becomes deeply
>>> confusing. The idea of Merit is something that I got on
>>> my own, right? So working back from now to birth whence
>>> exactly did I get that merit. Even what I got from my
>>> genes was random right. At what point do get to embrace
>>> my merit as of my own making? So far as me, myself, is
>>> concerned, it’s all luck all the way down. That is what
>>> the declaration of independence means when it says that
>>> all [humans] are created equal.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick Thompson
>>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,JGErGkFl3ZxOjIrrCAWIDis3A-4siD3v0vD4Vy5pAIDRs0ZmqGQayWNy46xHObGTWmcFkB_B1O7Xgwn2h6Yw1GzH_9o1oPAfEBH2Zuhg-y-OT5fkrEZbplU,&typo=1>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *David
>>> Eric Smith
>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 2, 2021 7:47 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] of straw and steel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think there is some version of this for college
>>> tuitions, too, though I am partly muddy-headed and what
>>> I say next will probably fail the logical map at some
>>> points.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The general idea is some combination of what is in
>>> Ginsberg’s book
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434
>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434>
>>> but even more so in some article I read in J. Higher Ed
>>> or something (which I have not succeeded in finding and
>>> I need now for other projects), to the effect that:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. There is been a massive cumulative re-allocation of
>>> money out of need-based grants and to merit-based
>>> scholarships over the past 40 years or so.
>>> 2. Sounds good, of course: who could be against
>>> rewarding merit.
>>> 3. Except that, de facto, what one largely rewards is
>>> preparation, which is a proxy for parental wealth and
>>> membership in one of the culture’s preferred classes,
>>> races, regions, or what-have-you. The part of this that
>>> I am pretty sure is in Ginsberg is also fishing for
>>> parental wealth by building snazzy student centers,
>>> on-campus water parks, etc. All that at enormous cost.
>>> The punchline of all this is that WHEN THE BUSINESSMEN
>>> TAKE OVER THE CONCEPT OF THE UNIVERSITY, THE UNIVERSITY
>>> BECOMES A BUSINESS. So, monies spent, such as tuition
>>> deferment whether called grant or scholarships, is in
>>> their worldview VENTURE CAPITAL. (That was what was in
>>> the JHE article.) And the return that venture capital
>>> is seeking is parental tuition money.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So how does this map to Glen’s EricC’s comments: The
>>> nominal tuition is very high (4x what it was in the
>>> 1970s, per faculty actually teaching or doing
>>> research). That high tuition isn’t actually
>>> cost-received from most parents, because a significant
>>> fraction of it was spent either giving their kids
>>> scholarships, building water parks and student centers,
>>> or whatever. However: if they had given it in
>>> need-based grants, they wouldn’t be getting _anything_
>>> from the parents. So in the businessman’s world, the
>>> investment gathered a maximized monetary profit, which
>>> was the criterion for how to make it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As in EricC’s point below, there will be some very rich
>>> parents with kids so lazy or dull that they aren’t
>>> well-prepared even with opportunities, so one can’t give
>>> them scholarships, and those will pay the sticker
>>> price. Those are the ones who buy the article at $19,
>>> or medical products or services at list price. High
>>> profit but small margin on them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In all the recent and ongoing conversations about
>>> tuition jubilee or free college in the US, I worry that
>>> everything real and solvable gets ruled out before we
>>> ever start, because the above characterization of the
>>> real business model isn’t front and center. Not very
>>> different for medical products and services (I am trying
>>> not to use the completely bleached expression “health
>>> care”), though that has been around long enough that a
>>> fuller story is not so uncommon to find.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is right that we have mortgaged a whole generation of
>>> kids with unplayable tuition loans, and probably
>>> somebody should eat that cost. Kind of like when German
>>> banks bought junk mortgage bonds in the US, they should
>>> actually have been allowed to fail for having not done
>>> due diligence, rather than being bailed out by a
>>> government that then had to get the money to float them
>>> by leaning on somebody else (the Irish, the Italians).
>>> That of course doesn’t really work for the reasons
>>> correctly given in Minsky’s Ratchet
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Stabilizing-Unstable-Economy-Hyman-Minsky/dp/0071592997
>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Stabilizing-Unstable-Economy-Hyman-Minsky/dp/0071592997>
>>> But the threat of it somehow should be used, while the
>>> problem is building, to keep the banks doing due
>>> diligence, and to stop the schools from hiking tuition
>>> and spending to profit on the margin, or medical
>>> products and services skyrocketing as a negotiating
>>> point against insurance companies, etc. The system
>>> either gets fixed as a system, or not at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There must be a really great book somewhere, which gets
>>> the data and the economics better than I can, and also
>>> explains this clearly enough that it can be an
>>> everyman’s book. It’s messy and a bait indirect, but
>>> it’s not so hard as to be incomprehensible. Does
>>> anybody know such a book?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 3, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Eric Charles
>>> <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Something Glen's analysis, there are MANY things in
>>> the modern economy that fit things model, including
>>> healthcare.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The insurance companies demand a steep discount in
>>> procedures.
>>> The hospital's have costs to cover.
>>> The only possible consequence is to dramatically
>>> increase the sticker price. There hospital doesn't
>>> expect someone to pay that much for a major
>>> procedure, they expect bulk buyers (i.e., insurance
>>> companies) to drive buisness at ther bulk price. (If
>>> some random person does pay sticker price every so
>>> often, all the better, but that's not ther primary
>>> goal.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mattress companies, clothing stores, etc. that have
>>> massive sales 3/4th of the year are doing the same
>>> sort of thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See also my continuous complaints about the "Big Mac
>>> Index". Only a small % of Big Macs in the U.S. are
>>> purchased at sicker price. The sticker price is
>>> primarily intended as something to discount off of.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 10:56 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$
>>> <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe. But remember, despite the prescriptive
>>> linguists out there: a) "troll" is not an insult
>>> and b) it can be accidental.
>>>
>>> All 3 of Russ' "people with grants", Barry's
>>> "rent seeking", and Pieter's "publishing profits
>>> are bad for science" responses are a trawler's
>>> delight! Rather than talk about the Strawman
>>> fallacy and it's variations, we're talking ...
>>> [sigh] again ... about capitalism and money.
>>>
>>> Call it naivete if you want. But it was a very
>>> effective troll.
>>>
>>> On 6/30/21 7:47 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Oh, I see. The point is to make getting the
>>> individual item so expensive that it just
>>> balances driving to the library (or doing ILL)
>>> with subscribing to the Journal. It's pure
>>> manipulation; costs have nothing to do with it.
>>> >
>>> > Glen, I think you persistently confuse naivete
>>> with trolling.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>>>
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>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,omtST340K6Lofu82ivNFSjf5nYrsg8Vw8hnh9qL6rI1qHpTYpat50f3ZSEVm13Uz4S07MdTo9uivJCzwwOux25UFEHN8afH5aK-rqdmd2_TzzkPLqRg,&typo=1>
>>> un/subscribe
>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ejvpu3P2__Ts5Rr739RVpxF3vN-R7967EAtFeYL76vfx9QUdqw4lWXY1mwNOLKTw9b1Nr97hF6naL9Kl9g-YB3XQAufNCt2PWiVq7Syn3--nLrXt5MpTLZ0u&typo=1
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ejvpu3P2__Ts5Rr739RVpxF3vN-R7967EAtFeYL76vfx9QUdqw4lWXY1mwNOLKTw9b1Nr97hF6naL9Kl9g-YB3XQAufNCt2PWiVq7Syn3--nLrXt5MpTLZ0u&typo=1>
>>> FRIAM-COMIC
>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ZjZ63z6kUldm120MBYXD8YdOu2LSLbqQeU4EQNtcre3l1ShWItR0mO9KRw_ML9kJNZuEcyNFL22zJWPdpnuCTHJwTmz0JAu2ocnTqeV6ZLNExmqYkKnk8K4Q4CAw&typo=1
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ZjZ63z6kUldm120MBYXD8YdOu2LSLbqQeU4EQNtcre3l1ShWItR0mO9KRw_ML9kJNZuEcyNFL22zJWPdpnuCTHJwTmz0JAu2ocnTqeV6ZLNExmqYkKnk8K4Q4CAw&typo=1>
>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,e0PXV7rjN6O_Gjs_FYJzqXXB_DBNn9hrZex5L4-0t38qRlj45dBmOT9znRSPAiHqQbHtJH0LWhXsDcUaHIG1QW-fC85wDQmqDZoOE4dc&typo=1>
>>> un/subscribe
>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,3yMxMbA2YKrPcmPPgD1GNyzohqbjqQKMOE6ZmIi8Z98EtxC3WLfIIRhAjf_CTSFzr7dO8KwTadagDy4HY2lyYYwtBxnmYeDNzdw_6U9Juw,,&typo=1>
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zxkXETus_MKJ3rVnMy__Ohh4PR97JsJsUVC4W7rFY2sZJQ_UGkI8QP3YqKKF-OOTQCvys5Gif1EOO5HgFgKfNsabKYZp1ai7vsbbBcDtORU0HUQAT0nbFHg,&typo=1>
>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>>>
>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,ck0SCVhYKlfn-cZRWcpPfY3g8_KwRzOPvaBLCBxSTIAB3Vi3CbiP0MTSD4KUSxs3YCRYsfceRjSL2wDLRxMYpiiONTGUg8z7ubVK_ZuX3ZBydkw,&typo=1>
>>> un/subscribe
>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,AyOSMdSuKvV-qoG7_ZmrVZbFCLer1jgiqahZ5_s-f7ng54XXg5fC4ENsWtzVdLoWmLXQ5RG4NQF1sdvXgHIxLnwq7jtVgOTraYAc2n5vxT8f78If&typo=1>
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,S9FLMCuaa42C4n8dXFeyGvvOrIZioh_-nmGMv7PdW1cWvY39orRZrCAVyzhtH-YZLxcAlOWFJPngNedptGlf6JL_uO88YdXY2XgUAcZeoAFznuBmam_Vr88x2w,,&typo=1>
>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>>> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2femergentdiplomacy.org&c=E,1,b2ZWR16aHpBoVoUWii1AQlP3KJWBTrbHlEvfyu5juLgUusefSefp2mwJCFa9_GKhjtgEm7WdtS0H2KrCXvG9m0sgNpaAcjEguRleR37hVS26Ay9tezpw81an&typo=1>
>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>>
>>> mobile: (303) 859-5609
>>> skype: merle.lelfkoff2
>>> twitter: @merle110
>>>
>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,ZUTc2vp4N95Aoc6a-swpfnAN-2jc4zoSWUQPumSZxZGbOU1fEg5OK7jgBGRX5suO1tNNlUBypOWak3eUlyEz-Vfyhbu_7tYTKWSUEYpNuDv2-Ovr&typo=1>
>>> un/subscribe
>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,P-7hDOvft3YH8MpRSFF_qqejcOFJJspQNdp2NFP_nSz-ZFe1WIqhv6F7lm2QARQQca5JOoVHGq0yq0tKUq9YElNL1gFAgfoMTA0qOPMSBKg_zC2nWtw9&typo=1
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,P-7hDOvft3YH8MpRSFF_qqejcOFJJspQNdp2NFP_nSz-ZFe1WIqhv6F7lm2QARQQca5JOoVHGq0yq0tKUq9YElNL1gFAgfoMTA0qOPMSBKg_zC2nWtw9&typo=1>
>>> FRIAM-COMIC
>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zZR_T72mBSjwiPEb7Yr003Dhg-de_5rRfhYyfSEyUc2qy1mOMa9ARQqd93tQ7D1n4EPS6C3IizNwadxBkUIkatZCzt74O9_JJqnxZdvN7XXQhd2lgag0KDMplTM,&typo=1
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zZR_T72mBSjwiPEb7Yr003Dhg-de_5rRfhYyfSEyUc2qy1mOMa9ARQqd93tQ7D1n4EPS6C3IizNwadxBkUIkatZCzt74O9_JJqnxZdvN7XXQhd2lgag0KDMplTM,&typo=1>
>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>>
>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,nPaHGbr_Nu5xxq5hk3VIbOfAZSYl_7SwJjiIanm5KC279XVFdCEqFfr5Lr5PjiU1qy7gmluo1v9GJ_7fCsOMfZWQVHGT4YkzBB3pJ3sHyCw,&typo=1>
>> un/subscribe
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,TsHwaMi0gbBahgtA2XvIk1xSoxRc4jWcGWy3ie-AuK1YuHGLXzUasGX3X9DHQlOI30Zm7SkJfEWLYMfstoEeUm5iC_36pVzdMooeHZh2vG85YX5s-fWAbg,,&typo=1>
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,PDxQ6WowsV6z00xl-T5OMUAm-OOKYVUVI4apduVJlkZzcrzEcPXsgwBHi0E6MX_wDMaYYgmD8vdVCHuMQzxHvM099rjAqN3q5kP7pEKwO5SYVl9q&typo=1>
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2femergentdiplomacy.org&c=E,1,S81-32Dgjhy9fgsxBHE-7PLI4WBSmUgF5T2vwewp4AjGdGXrrjIW35T8UoRDeO00ecoorpGDiW_8o5_EqAL7T_ovguIfcpPZQLFuWYk_YgC-WVoJNJPY&typo=1>
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>
>> mobile: (303) 859-5609
>> skype: merle.lelfkoff2
>> twitter: @merle110
>>
>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
>> un/subscribe
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,K7cAh1DuV4b3vxurW5TtH8x6tICw1GEmEUBFK0r7z_st0sp7UjQCjH7MXm78UbnUedYffyfmBaSBBlpsWTrPETVIW1Mswd48AyFOkAQP9slToQ,,&typo=1
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,K7cAh1DuV4b3vxurW5TtH8x6tICw1GEmEUBFK0r7z_st0sp7UjQCjH7MXm78UbnUedYffyfmBaSBBlpsWTrPETVIW1Mswd48AyFOkAQP9slToQ,,&typo=1>
>> FRIAM-COMIC
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,7fYbAlnfK9A49jHw1MPvHX03zMCYXgPo-Wpwi7jO-xS1Lz8nYTA7cSPjXD7Y8UkRLhGLszUG9pReSRQmk1cscS2EL81jBRM4Ae-YPuoBJWLYMQ,,&typo=1
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,7fYbAlnfK9A49jHw1MPvHX03zMCYXgPo-Wpwi7jO-xS1Lz8nYTA7cSPjXD7Y8UkRLhGLszUG9pReSRQmk1cscS2EL81jBRM4Ae-YPuoBJWLYMQ,,&typo=1>
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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